For skills-universe members, who are private Skills Development Providers (SDP)s, or private providers of Education & Training.
LGSETA loses accreditation application file – legal action warranted?
10th Apr 2015 at 9:42 am #30292Carla Van VeenendaalParticipant
I suspect there is a file 13, no a hole 13, one of the no longer used mine shafts in the south of JHB where these files go to. They are like socks in the washing. Problem is, these socks eventually cost money – whether in lost income, or in having to reproduce the file, which is also an environmental issue because of the mountains of paper that is consumed. It really boggles the mind that no alternative system has yet been devised – from electronic submission, to a tracking system, to a dashboard system to a kind of project management for each file or each process. There are thousands of files floating around offices, from accreditation to re-accreditation to renewals of whatever…. and these get duplicated and even triplicated, because of “being misplaced”. I am too scared to ask how many members of this forum currently are dealing with missing papers/files etc where the onus is placed on them to replace this. There is zero accountability because these administrators are getting a salary every month. Would they last in any of the private organisations with that kind of attitude? No, I don’t think so. Would any of them dare to try and work for their salary like the members of this forum? No, I don’t think so. They are too secure in their ivory towers. And then they are the ones who pontificate that the private providers are only about making money and not about the learners. But, actually, Narina, I agree with your first sentence. As to individual responsibility, in my personal capacity, not speaking as counsel, I would suggest that as an external client, one should lay a complaint against that person with his/her line manager. Whether that would go anywhere, I dunno. However, if all external clients complain to the direct line managers, eventually it has to be taken into account at performance appraisal time. Eventually it may lead to disciplinary action against the person. But external clients have no control over that process. As to legal responsibility, the organisation remains responsible, but courts have in certain narrowly defined circumstances held individuals responsible. This is usually in the SAPS environment where the evidence is that one specific cop did his best to hinder a person’s appearance at court or intimidated a person or ensured that the person was detained unlawfully. If one can get evidence that one specific person in his/her wanderings from employment at one SETA to the next, does his/her best to hinder applications by losing them…. well…. maybe personal responsibility could follow, but it would have to be proved on a balance of probabilities, which is a bit difficult. Please note that these are my personal thoughts.10th Apr 2015 at 10:05 am #30291Bernard BothaParticipant
I am one of the “thousands” of providers who had to duplicate files as they were ‘misfiled”. I have dealt with two SETA’s, construction SETA or CETA and Transport SETA or TETA. Drove from Bloemfontein to Johannesburg to try and locate the files, I was not allowed to speak to the evaluator in person – only via the internal phone. She assured me that she had the file in front of her – we could hear her voice in the office next door and (foolishly) left as it was getting late.
Three months later after numerous enquiries we were told that the file had never been received and I had to submit again. Did so by driving to Johannesburg and eventually got an acknowledgement of receipt. When we enquired again after a few months and faxed them the acknowledgement we were told that ‘the person who signed it was not authorised to sign’ and no trace of file.
Gave up in disgust and went to NAMB, got my accreditation and registration as a trade test centre within three weeks.
Trying to submit electronically is also a nightmare as the CETA and TETA does not accept electronic versions, especially if you submit PDF files (because they can’t pass the information on to their mates? Deliberately introducing typos in your material is amusing because you get the same material including the typos from another source when you purchase learning material. ).
Trying to deal with TETA is an exercise in futility! The “evaluator” examines each and every word in the QMS and then spends days and weeks arguing about the meaning of the word ‘diploma’. Going to her senior is pointless – I have submitted four appeals already and got absolutely nowhere. Appealing to the CEO is also frustrating as they “loose” documents sent via courier, never collect their post from the Post Office so the only option is to drive there again and hope that the CEO will not be in a meeting or on leave.
How about a class action against the SETA’s? Maybe get the team suggested by Henk Cloete?
On the positive side; there are one or two SETA’s who earn their keep, MerSETA and ETDP SETA are two that I know of.10th Apr 2015 at 10:06 am #30290Hannes NelParticipant
Well, you will understand why our attorney sent me an email earlier this week in which he thanks me for being such a good client. He should actually thank the SETAs. Even more interesting – Pumla Mkele is now the ETQA Manager for LGSETA. She used to be at ETDP SETA. If you have the time – phone the ETDP SETA and listen to the tone of voice of anybody you talk to. They are tired, frustrated, dejected and at the brink of throwing in the towel. Some are jumping ship. Rumours are that most SETAs will be closed down this year still. Do they know something that we don’t? I previously suggested that they let us do the work while they monitor if we are behaving well. My proposal still stands.10th Apr 2015 at 10:17 am #30289
To continue with my comment earlier, about 18 months ago I had a long conversation with somebody who was employed at a Seta – no names will be metioned – on a contract basis and this person out of her own accord said that she could not wait for her contract to be over. She found her colleagues (who had permanent jobs) lazy and inefficient, they hang around the office gossiping, have extended lunches and teatimes, come in late, leave early and in general really could not be bothered to do their work at all. Some of them actually said to her, when dealing with clients, just tell them the file is lost, they must resubmit.
This goes on every day and, complaining to line managers will not help – the employees are not being disciplined as it is, so one can assume that this lack of any commitment to work of any kind also extends to supervisors and managers.
How we can get to an amicable solution is completely beyond me and, honestly, we will only stop this if we can make an example of just one of these lazy and inefficient employees, supervisors or even managers.10th Apr 2015 at 10:21 am #30288Carla Van VeenendaalParticipant
Hannes, how long have those rumours been going around? And what is being put in place? In order to change the system away from SETAs, I suspect that the legislation has to be changed in order to put a new system in place? Or, miracle of miracles, are the SETAs going to disappear and private providers can simply exist unfettered in the vacuum that is created?
Bernard, you are mentioning costs that should be borne by the system that demands compliance. It has been my personal opinion for a long time that the demander should bear the costs. It should also bring down the demands for compliance and it should streamline processes. Doesn’t the PFMA also demand that auditors should look for instances where employees should have avoided wasted expenditure? So, if the SETA has to avoid wasted expenditure, they should also pay for the elaborate demands of the cumbersome and top heavy system they created.
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