Concerned Providers Interest Group – QCTO/SAQA/SETA/DHET


QCTO to the Rescue! QCTO Information Sharing Sessions – Register to Attend!

This topic contains 1 reply, has 19 voices, and was last updated by  Lynel Farrell 2 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #25387

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Dear concerned members.  As you know, various issues and concerns have been raised in desperate need for solutions and guidance.   A large summary report of issues and concerns were submitted yesterday to the QCTO.  I have received confirmation from the QCTO this morning very early, that they acknowledge receipt of the submission.

    Areas of Concerns Raised (in summary) are as follows:

    HWSeta

    New Stipulations: One or more of the applicant SDP Directors appearing on the CIPC or NPO registration document and seeking accreditation or programme approval with the HWSETA shall provide proof that they possess sector qualifications with minimum of 120 credits, and a minimum of three (3) years’ experience in the field.

    DoL Notice – Forces Providers to apply for accreditation at the HWSeta – (providers will be forced to close down)

    Ceta

    Changes in Accreditation Criteria without informing Providers – horrendous effect on the Construction industry, major log jam with re-accreditation and re-registration applications.

    CathsSeta

    NLRD uploads not conducted, refuse to apply for unit standards in use for re-registration – learners being disadvantage, provider(s) to close down – Seta not complying with the Skills Development Act, NQF Act.

    Teta

    Uninformed decisions made without due regard for the consequences to the regulated environment, safety aspects of the LMO Industry. Forcing lower certification rates, mass destruction and damage to industry, inconsistency and non-compliance with regulatory requirements, Driven Machinery Regulations ignored.

    W&R Seta

    Extension of Scope delays and issues unacceptable – costs for providers and refusal of reports of decline.  Procedural Fairness ignored

     

    Various general concerns have also been submitted which was extracted from some discussions.  It took some time to put this together (15 pages long).  With this said, I also want to thank Mr Nigel Shipston that offered to help me on the final draft (my fingers were numb and the eyes struggled).  Thank you Nigel for the help.

    So what happens now that the QCTO have acknowledge the submission of concerns and issues?  Well, it is a large complaint with various issues and concerns with a number of SETA’s.  To be fair, we need to give the QCTO time to evaluate all the issues raised in order to give us a response on guidance, clarity and possible actions that have been taken.  It needs to be clear that QCTO is committed to resolving disputes between providers and SETA Quality Assurance Partners or QAP’s (what was previously referred to as SETA ETQA’s) to prevent such resulting in legal action.

    I urge you (for those that are considering to take legal action) to please wait for the outcome.  I really do feel that your input and concerns have been voiced in the correct manner, and that the QCTO will act accordingly with guidance and solutions.  Myself and Nigel are offering to coordinate and present any reasonable issues so that we have a single channel to work through on this group.

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  • #25587

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Current figures are standing at:

    GP – 25 members booked

    WC – 5 members booked

    KZN – 14 members booked

    Each Venue seems to have the capacity to host 400 seats each – let’s make it happen!

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  • #25586

    Tass Schwab
    Participant

    CT booked and shared with one other thus far!

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  • #25585

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    That is awesome Tass, thank you so much.  Please share with any Provider that you might know of, that is not a member of skills universe.  We don’t want them to miss this opportunity.  I will also try!  We have come this far, now we can actually engage with the QCTO, meet them, address various concerns.  They have really shown that our voices have been heard, now we need to show our support and fill the seats.  It is going to be so exciting!!!!!!

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  • #25584

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    I have sent over 100 emails and still busy – I challenge you to do the same!

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  • #25583

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Come Sister Warrior, I was on over 350 yesterday already!

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  • #25582

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Nigel, well, that means I really have to go for it!  Game on, brother, game on!  Do you think that any other member will be able to join this challenge?  Somehow, I doubt it.  But I do love being proofed wrong

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  • #25581

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Nigel, I am standing on 1053 sent out – but I must admit, there are a number of emails coming back – sad case indeed.

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  • #25580

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Progress on Registrations: Current figures are standing at:

    GP – 69 members booked

    WC – 21 members booked

    KZN – 15 members booked

    The Members that have secured their registration, well done.  These sessions will be of great value to you – register quickly before it is too late!

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  • #25579

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Today I want to share something with you.  The meaning of Ostrich Syndrome!

    An Ostrich, is a funny creature (I am terrified of these big creatures, for sure). It is said that when an Ostrich sees trouble, it buries its head in the ground and convinces itself that the trouble doesn’t exist anymore! We use this metaphor commonly to describe the person, who constantly lives in denial, who ‘solves’ the problems by believing they don’t exist or aren’t significant enough. Now, I have newly learned is that there are other type of Ostriches as well. Unlike our conventional Ostriches, they do not bury their heads conveniently… but at large they are too busy looking at the stars, so much that they go on missing what is happening within 10 feet from them! These are those polished, well-read types who are sometimes too much dazzled by their ideals, their principles that they fail to see simple things clearly. Ultimately, be it the bury-your-head type or stair-at-the-stars type, what matters the most is “to miss the ground reality”

     

    These two descriptions are different from each other, however, one is collective responsibility and the other is individual’s choice. And yet, when someone complains on the decline of moral values from society, people react as if their individual freedom is offended.  I believe that we do not have Ostrich Syndrome.  There is trouble in paradise, but we will collectively take the responsibility to seek solutions to ensure our future.

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  • #25578

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Ok, concerned members – before you start the weekend with a big bash, please register!  We are all counting on each other to show the QCTO our appreciation of what they have arranged for us.

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  • #25577

    Tando Qeqe
    Participant

    I have registered,Lynel.

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  • #25576

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Tando, that is excellent!  Thank you so much!  This workshop/session will really assist you and other Providers!

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  • #25575

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Dear Members, please remember to still add your issues here.  This discussion will be very valuable when we get to the sessions arranged by the QCTO.  Let’s keep the serious issues on this discussion, so that we collectively have knowledge of all the issues.  We still await the response from the QCTO on our submission of most of the concerns, and this will be shared on this discussion.  It will also be beneficial, if for any reason you have a solution to any of the issues and concerns raised.  Working together is the best we can do!

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  • #25574

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Wishing you the best for 2017!  Please remember to add any issues here, so that we can keep track of all concerns, issues and questions!

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  • #25573

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Here are some important questions that we need to get answers to with regards to the Seta licenses being extended to :

    1. Must Accredited Providers re-apply again?

    2. Must Assessors and Moderators re-apply for registration again?

    3. What does this mean for the legacy qualifications, will this also be extended?

    4. What happens to the Assessors and Moderators after March 2018?

    5. Will there be a register for learning material designers?

    Any additions?

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  • #25572

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    I think it is time to consider SETA provider accreditations and practitioner registrations to be automatically extended to March 2020.  We have all been subject to out of timing re-accreditation/re-registration over the last few years that our focus is becoming stuck on these laborious processes rather than on what we should be doing – focusing on the training function.

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  • #25571

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Nigel, I wonder of the QCTO can instruct the Setas to automatically extend all current accredited providers and Assessors/Moderator’s end date of registration to March 2020?  I believe that it would only be fair to these businesses and ETD practitioners.  Should we add this to the list of questions for the QCTO?  Imagine the backlogs if all providers need to re-register/apply and all Assessors/Moderators re-applying at all the Setas, they will not be able to cope with the applications, not to mention the new applications/registrations.

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  • #25570

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Most definitely! SAQA automatically extended registration dates of registered qualifications and unit standards from 2015 to 2018, so I see no reason why provider accreditation and practitioner registrations should not be automatically extended as well this time.  If Qualifications/Unit Standards have not changed, surely these accreditations and registrations can be automatically extended, as there have been no changes in the system?  The annual monitoring and external moderation activities can ensure that providers and practitioners continue to operate up to scratch without the additional re-accreditation/re-registration processes.  Many SETA’s are already backlogged, expecting re-accreditation/re-registration at this stage is only going to exacerbate the situation and leave us in total chaos by the time QCTO steps in.

    It is time to bring a bit of relief to all concerned, permitting a settling in period that will facilitate a somewhat calmer and less stressful transition to QCTO processes, than if we all have to re-apply now for the 2020 date.  My current registration would have run virtually to the 2020 date according to the 3 year registration period, and has remained constant since 2010. I don’t think my SETA wants me breathing down their necks for another re-registration process which at this stage seems a little superfluous.

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  • #25569

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    I completely agree with you Nigel.  Let me think about this, maybe there is another way in getting this specific information ……………..

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  • #25568

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Urgent and Important Update on QCTO Information Sessions:

    Gauteng is fully booked – there is no more seats

    Cape Town has gone past the 50% mark, and it is noted that registration for this Session closes on the 3rd February – don’t wait too long, get your registration quickly, print your ticket to avoid disappointment.

    KZN – moving towards the 50% mark slowly, the registration to attend the KZN Session closes on the 26th February – again, please don’t wait till it is too late.  Book people, please.

    We have already received emails from Providers/Employers for the Gauteng Session for more seats – this cannot be done by us.  We are only spreading the word of these sessions, as we are all concerned citizens and we want to make a positive change in the education industry.  Please Members, there is no cost to book and attend these sessions, the QCTO have arranged all of this for us at no charge.  They want to speak to us, yes that’s right.  QCTO wants to hear from us, the Providers, Employers, ETD Practitioners – let’s show them our appreciation and get Cape Town and KZN fully booked!!!!!!!

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  • #25567

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Dear Members, the following attachments have been received from the QCTO yesterday afternoon.  These attachments will be distributed to the Setas, Professional Bodies and Accredited Skills Development Providers for Occupational Qualifications and Nated Report 190/1.  If you have the time to go through them and give a summary or input, it would be appreciated.

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  • #25566

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Good Day Members, herewith the update on the availability for the Information Sessions that the QCTO will be hosting for us.

    Gauteng – this friday: fully booked (there are no seats available).

    Cape Town – session will be running on the 16th February – there are only 120 seats left (280 registered/booked and confirmed)

    KZN – session will be running on the 9th March – there are 192 seats left (208 registered/booked and confirmed)

    If you know of any Providers/Employers/ETD Practitioners in the Cape Town or Durban area, please spread the message – get these venues fully booked – it will benefit all Individuals within the training industry.  Let’s make it happen!!

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  • #25565

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Dear Skills Universe Members.  I have received confirmation that we will receive a response from the QCTO by Monday the 30th January 2017 (this coming monday) with reference to our submissions received regarding concerns, issues and problems from Providers with Setas, Department of Labour etc.  Watch this space!!

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  • #25564

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Good Day.

    Please be advised that the QCTO Information Session that will be held in Cape Town, do have some seats available.  Note: to register a seat, you only have till the 3rd February – thereafter no-one will be able to secure a seat.  Please spread the word to Providers, ETD Practitioners in the Western Cape Area.

    The QCTO Information Session that will be held in KZN, have seats available.  Note: to register a set, you only have until the 26 February to secure your seat. Please spread the word to Providers and ETD Practitioners in the KZN area.

    Your assistance is highly appreciated!

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  • #25563

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Dear Members!

    In a couple of hours, the first QCTO Information Session will commence in Gauteng, at the Ekurhuleni East College, Kwa-Thema Cumpus (Sam Ngema Street, Springs).  According to the Registration portal all 400 seats have been taken.  Well done Gauteng!  Bring your questions, concerns, issues – let’s start working together with the QCTO for a better future!!  See you there tomorrow!!

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  • #25562

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Dear Members, we have received the response from the QCTO with regards to issues and concerns submitted.  This is now shared with you.  Please go through this response, if you have any comments, please let’s do this on this discussion page.  Once all feedback and comments have been received, I will then compile a summary and submit this back to the QCTO.  We will continue to engage with the QCTO in a positive manner, as they are really trying hard to address everything, which cannot be easy at all. 

    Thank you Mr Lata and team, for your continuous support, hard work and commitment to assist all the Providers, it is highly appreciated!

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  • #25561

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Nice to see that someone takes notice of our issues and is prepared to take action!  Equally interesting that it is clear that there are SETA’s whose reign of terror and unilateral decision making are being reigned in. While there are still some issues where responsibility is being blamed on providers (CETA – “were incorrectly interpreted by the providers”? Implementation is CETA’s responsibility and there are more than enough CETA Assessors that were previously registered WITHOUT SoR’S!), and it seems some SETA’s are trying the stalling game, in general, I must salute Mr Lata and his QCTO colleagues for the efforts they have made to bring a bit of sanity into our lives.

    Both gratifying and comforting that we can be heard and that there is a responsible authority prepared to investigate and take action!

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  • #25560

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Nigel, it is wonderful to see how much work the QCTO have put in to address all the issues.  Now, if you look at the amount of issues, various Setas, how they have compiled the response – I am over the moon with the commitment from the QCTO.  What a wonderful feeling, they care!!!!!!!!!!!

    Each section needs to be evaluated, and it would be valuable for us, the Setas and the QCTO if we could give feedback on the progress.  What is needed here, everybody needs to understand.  It doesn’t mean that now that we have received the response of the QCTO, that we leave it as is.  We have to continuously engage with the QCTO in order to help them, help us.

    I will carefully go through this, await feedback from members, compile feedback and continue this engagement.  Who knows, maybe the QCTO can assist all Providers in getting Provider-Seta sessions, which will benefit the industry at large.

    But let’s focus on the response, respect the work that the QCTO have done, be thankful for the acknowledgement of issues, and continue this journey to work with the QCTO.

    I second you on your comment: Salute Mr Lata and his QCTO colleagues for the efforts they have made to bring a bit of sanity into our lives!!!!!!!!!!

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  • #25559

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Members, if you are not able to open the Response from QCTO, all you have to do is send me an email: lynel.farrell@gmail.com

    I will forward it to you, no problem!!

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  • #25558

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Morning Lynel

    First – again thanks to you and Nigel for keeping your hands on the plough…

    I am grateful to see the detailed response from the QCTO, but the following still concerns me…

    HWSETA:

    And the status whilst the above is implemented? Applying for accreditation is a costly exercise, both in time and money.  If the SETA is going to “ignore” these suggestions until “cast in concrete”, many providers will still find their applications being rejected.

    CETA:

    I do not feel that this resolves the issue. Yes – the ETDP SoR was always a requirement to be registered as an Assessor / Moderator.  The issue was that the CETA also expected these applicants to have had a SoR from the CETA indicating that they did some form of CETA training, thus not taking into account the principles of RPL / CAT or “life experience.” If the SoR was the only document needed, then why do you need to submit a comprehensive CV with certificates detailing your experience within a sector?

    RISKS:

    All the risks are “systematic” and the QCTO definitely made it clear in no uncertain terms that the respective SETA’s were out of order… I would like to know if the QCTO would have a “developmental approach” in dealing with these SETA’s or would they be “threatened” with compliance plans and de-accreditation etc. These are the words that private providers have to life by…

    TIMELINES:

    2018 might seem far off now, but it is just a matter of relaxing just a moment and everything is lost.. could we get more defined resolution timelines for the HWSETA, CETA, CATHSSETA, SSETA and TETA.

    Again, I think this forum of Lynel has struck a “ringing blow” to those that act without taking the providers into consideration…

    Many thanks.

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  • #25557

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Henk,

    Thank you so much for your feedback, it is appreciated (more than you think).  Thank you for acknowledging me and Nigel with this regard, it takes a lot of time to work on this, continuous follow ups, motivating Providers to open up, get involved etc.  Unfortunately, those who do not get involved will carry the consequences in being outdated (which is not our fault, our responsibility and take no accountability for that – absolutely not).  Currently (and the last couple of months) we have worked on this project in engaging with the QCTO to assist providers at our own cost (yes, it does have an impact on us financially – phone calls, emails, downloads, research – the list is endless).

    Noting this, it blows my mind, that you start with loads of support and a huge need from individuals/businesses with emails/phone calls – that they need this and that, are concerned, doesn’t understand, have difficulties (oh, this list is again endless).  We are trying our best to accommodate all providers nationwide in getting back on track.  All we request and ask for, is get involved, place your concerns/issues, give feedback – but it seems that there is now a complete cloud of silence.

    Maybe I am just frustrated in the lack of response today and this disappoints me.  Maybe I should go offline, drink a bottle of Whiskey with a straw, crawl through my neighbourhood, act like a dog and bark back at all the dogs, attempt to climb a ladder and get onto my roof, shout out – hello, is anybody out there – and get mr delivery to bring me another bottle of whiskey and a straw, waiting for a voice to answer back – we are all here, we hear you ……………………….. urghhhhhh  **Gone to bark at dogs crawling and hoping for them to bark at me – at least I will get some response ……

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  • #25556

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Met eish ja…

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  • #25555

    Louis Nel
    Participant

    Thank you very much for this!!!!

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  • #25554

    Hi Lynel

    Its just human nature these days for everyone to climb on the bandwagon and when they see someone is doing all the hard work,and with diligence, they will go silent…

    I for one are very appreciated of your efforts and what you have achieved thus far. Dont get discouraged ! Theres 100 s providers that support you all the way..and go and have a whiskey with a straw tonight!:))

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  • #25553

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    You are most welcome Louis.

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  • #25552

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Thank you Rudolf, hanging on for dear life.  Appreciate your kind words.  Hope this info helps. 

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  • #25551

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    A humble request to Members. 

    If you have been involved in submitting issues/concerns in the past couple of months, please could you be so kind to read the response from the QCTO.  Carefully go through this document, make notes on what you feel is not addressed accordingly, and give me your feedback. Should you wish to stay out of the public domain, no fear when Lynel is near, I have a bodyguard (Nigel).  You may email this to me. 

    However, let’s work on this, get supporting evidence, and continue to engage with the QCTO.  Hey, they are so committed to help us, and they listen to our cry for help – they do care!

    Feedback will really be appreciated!

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  • #25550

    Fiona de Beer Nel
    Participant

    Thank you so much Lynel. This has been so informative as I am not in the workplace anymore, so I have a full understanding now of what is currently happening in the industry. I really appreciate and value what you have done here. I have also send this information to the companies I work with to inform them of the developments as I am not sure if I am the only one in the dark on this, but I have definitly come to the light. QCTO things has been a mistery to me but it is nice to have this information but so easily understandable. Thank you again

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  • #25549

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Oh Fiona, now you making my day better, thank you so much.  We have to share information, this you are doing.  Thank you for taking this forward, I appreciate it so much.  Thank you!!!!!!

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  • #25548

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Please remember to read the response from the QCTO tonight.  I really want some feedback.  Counting on all members!!!

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  • #25547

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Any feedback or comments yet regarding the QCTO response to us all?

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  • #25546

    Please email it to me, Lynel

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  • #25545

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Jax, will do immediately!

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  • #25544

    Dear Lynel

    Concerns

    1.    How will the workplace component be secured for learners by Setas?  Will the new occupational qualifications be flexible enough to implement “simulated workplace environments” or is there another option to replace the workplace component, in order to be fair to the learner.

    Response: We believe Occupational Qualifications are flexible to accommodate any form of learning that will enable a learner to achieve and be competent.

    My concern: My understanding is the simulated work environments will  not be acceptable and this must be “actual” work experience. My main concern which I have reiterated innumerable times to the QCTO, is that if a learner cannot get “actual” work experience, he will never be able to get his qualification.

    8.    The future of short course provision.  Who will step up to ensure there is continued credibility in this critical space of occupational training?  APPETD perhaps or the QCTO?

    Response: If unit standards are all converted to Occupational Qualifications there’ll be no longer short courses/unit standards. It is believed that unit standards will form part of Occupational Qualifications.

    My comment: This does not answer the question. How are the hundreds/ thousands of short-course providers going to be accommodated within the training system?  E.g. could they offer only specific knowledge or practical modules in terms of the QCTO model? or will they have to offer “whole” qualifications? I see a space here for training on individual modules, specifically the practical modules although I need to think this through a bit, and of course I don’t want to send people in the wrong direction if it is not possible.

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  • #25543

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Jax, very valuable feedback, thank you so much!  I will add this to the feedback on the response for sure.  This is the kind of questions/comments we are looking for.  Thank you so much.  Please feel free to add as much comments as possible.

    If we don’t give feedback and address concerns, then we will remain in the dark.  Thank you so much for this Jax, very valuable!!!!

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  • #25542

    Masilo Piet Mangena
    Participant

     Thank you we  appreciate Lynel

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  • #25541

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Masilo, you are most welcome.  Is there any other questions that you feel needs to be added to this list? 

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  • #25540

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    After a nice weekend, I am 100% sure that more members had some time to go through the QCTO response to all our concerns and issues that we have compiled together and addressed.  Is there any other feedback with regards to the QCTO’s response?  Remember the process does not stop here, it is a continuous feedback and follow ups.  We can only do with with your input, please give us your feedback!!

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  • #25539

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Members, please be advised that the QCTO has extended the invitation to register for the Cape Town Information Session.  There is 52 seats left, the deadline date was extended until the 8th February (2 days away).  Please register to avoid disappointment.  Go and meet the QCTO staff, hear their presentation and be involved in the open form whereby you may address the QCTO team directly!

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  • #25538

    Fiona de Beer Nel
    Participant

    I just want to clarify on this point (it might have been discussed already, and if so my apologies for asking again). Does this mean that no training will take place if not doing a qualification?

    And since they need to be in the workplace are the provider going to be helped in this regards, or whose responsibility is it going to be to get workplaces for these learners?

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  • #25537

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Fiona, you are now entering a NO-GO zone, loads of questions, no answers and absolutely very valid.  Occupational Qualifications will be a full qualification (not necessarily 120 credits as we have been educated for the last decade or so) – a full occupational qualification could be “20” credits, but it will be a qualification (occupational qualification).  Is this confusing, yes it is. 

    I cannot see how providers will be helped with the workplace component, however, it did come up in the Information Session in Gauteng, that a simulated workplace environment might be accepted – this needs to be asked again in the Cape Town QCTO Information Session – we must have clarity on this, if not, we are doomed completely.

    Whose Responsibility is it going to be to get workplaces for these learners?  Good question Fiona.

    Not sure if you got some info from the Gauteng Session, but we had a group of Fire-Fighters and Miners on the session which was very interesting.  The Fire Fighters and the Miners clearly indicated that they WILL NOT open their workplace for learners, to get the workplace experience.  They deal with dangerous situations, and cannot take the chance of risking more lives – an absolute No-Go, not interested, will not open up for learners (unless they are trained within the field under their supervision). 

    We are in a catch 22 here, and thus far, I have heard many Employers (the big Corporates) that they will not open up their workplace for learners with no experience – this is serious Fiona, thank you for bringing this up again – very important indeed.

    Any input with regards to this, members?

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  • #25536

    Fiona de Beer Nel
    Participant

    Lynel, this is exactly the reason why I asked about the workplace, as we tried to get workplaces for your NVC learners here in Klerksdorp and the workplaces responded that they dont have the time to train people and they work on deadlines, so they can’t help.

    On the other spectrum the workplaces also became reluctant for taking the learnership students in, due to the dropout factor, and according to the workplace they then feel there is no committment and then they have to struggle around to fill that space

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  • #25535

    This has been the issue with the QCTO model from the beginning – no one can qualify without having the necessary workplace experience – so you can do all the knowledge and practical “modules” but you have to have work experience and THEN you have to do an integrated summative assessment and only THEN will you get your qualification!

    Be that as it may, my understanding is that providers can offer “parts of a qualification” – so if you want to offer a specific knowledge module and a related practical module (mind you they don’t necessarily have to “match”), you have to be accredited to offer those parts of the qualification much in the way that providers training on unit standards currently do.

    The same rules apply as currently – you cannot claim to be offering accredited training unless you are accredited (and now registered with the DHET) BUT you can offer unaccredited training – seminars, one-dayers, etc as employer needs dictate and as the market will bear. That’s called free enterprise and no one can take that right away from you – it’s in the Constitution!

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  • #25534

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Fiona, that is spot on, correct.  I believe every word.  This needs priority, clear and logical thinking from authorities.  But it seems that this is not understood at all – not acceptable.

    Learnerships is a major problem.  What Employers are doing is cutting permanent staff, and replacing them with learners (no experience) and once the drop-outs occur, the Employer is devastated.  You cannot replace a learner (as it is dirt cheap to pay a learner, rather than someon that have been employed for 10 years).  This should be stopped, but we do not have the authority nor the power.

    So, facing these battles for months now, it has come to a point, whereby we might have to submit a report for assistance to the Public Protector.  But Fiona, I must admit, and be very honest with you, I am so tired and frustrated (and to top this, I am not a provider) and I am just as frustrated as all the providers.  I hear you, I feel for you and the learners, but seriously there must be some kind of relief to all the providers (as they are responsible for the learners)

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  • #25533

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Jax, I hear you.  So, in order to stop being frustrated, trying to adhere to all the regulations, stipulations, requirements, accreditation, registration (blood, sweat and tears) – the only way out, is to conduct unaccredited/unregistered workshops …………….. imagine 23 000 accredited providers going that route, request immediate cancellation of accreditation status, conduct training which is Employer specific, issue own statement of results, issuing own certificates?  I have actually heard of training providers that attempt to register with international organisations that do not deal with our systems, authorities, stipulations, regulations, legislations, requirements at all.  I was not sure about this, but it comes up more frequently now than ever. 

    So the questions now is:  Are providers that offer accredited training doomed?

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  • #25532

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Calling on all Cape Town Members, Providers, ETD Practitioners, Assessors, Moderators, SDFs, Verifiers, Training Managers, ETD Consultants – please be advised that the QCTO has extended the invitation to register for the Cape Town Information Session.  There is  39 seats left, the deadline date was extended until the 8th February (1 day away).  Please register to avoid disappointment.  Go and meet the QCTO staff, hear their presentation and be involved in the open form whereby you may address the QCTO team directly!

    NOTE:  This QCTO Information Session scheduled for the 16th February (next week Thursday) is free, no cost to you.  Let’s get the remaining 39 seats registered!!!!!!! 

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  • #25531

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Thanks Lynel

    Could I beg of you to have a questions draft for us to take with… even some of the questions that were answered…

    Thanks

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  • #25530

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Henk, you don’t have to beg, I will do this with pleasure.  Please give me time, I am having terrible connection problems – or have reached my CAP again.  I will work on the list of questions and re-post them here.  Any member is welcome to add more questions – we still have sufficient time to add and amend!  Thank you for your support and continuous commitment in this journey!!

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  • #25529

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hey, Hey – Calling on all Cape Town Members, Providers, ETD Practitioners, Assessors, Moderators, SDFs, Verifiers, Training Managers, ETD Consultants – please be advised that the QCTO has extended the invitation to register for the Cape Town Information Session.  There is  25 seats left, (8 hours left before registration closes).  Please register to avoid disappointment.  Go and meet the QCTO staff, hear their presentation and be involved in the open form whereby you may address the QCTO team directly!

    NOTE:  This QCTO Information Session scheduled for the 16th February (next week Thursday) is free, no cost to you.  Let’s get the remaining 25 seats registered!!!!!!! 

    For those who don’t know, this means that 375 seats have been booked, registered and confirmed!!!!!  Whoop whoop, you go Cape Town – get the remainder of seats booked.  I believe in you, I know we can get it done.  Come on, let’s do it!!!!!!!

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  • #25528

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Dear Members, if you know of any provider, ETD Practitioner, Assessors, Moderators that are not active on Skills Universe, please could you share that registration closes today for the QCTO Information Session in Cape Town.  It is scheduled for the 16th February.  You can get information directly, what a wonderful service from the QCTO, and to top it all, there is no fee payable to the QCTO at all.  This Information Session is free of charge.  The reason for registration is merely to ensure that they cater for the numbers, makes sense hey.

    Help me find the 25 individuals that needs to book/register to participate in this fantastic QCTO session!!

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  • #25527

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    21 Seats Available – 4 hours to go:  Quickly register your seat before this session closes – in 4 hours!!  Come on Capetonians, 21 seats left for full capacity!!!!!!  I don’t have so many contacts in Cape Town, come on, let’s do it!!

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  • #25526

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    I need you to help me please.  My emails are being blocked, let’s get those 21 seats booked please.  Cape Town you cannot disappoint me, I am a Capetonian by birth, but far away to knock on your doors and ask for your commitment.  If I had a plane, I would be there, no problem.  It’s only 21 seats to full – put in your efforts too, to help show our commitment to the QCTO.  Sitting on the edge of my seat, I ran out of email addresses, telephone numbers, now its my request to you to help me, help others.

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  • #25525

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    3 hours left and counting down to registration closure.  There are still 21 seats available for the QCTO Information Session which will be held next week.  Please spread the word.  Only 21 seats left people!!!  Come on Cape Town!!!!!!!

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  • #25524

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    I promise to be there in spirit, however Cape Town is too far for me to walk to.  Lets get the 21 seats booked.  Assessors, Moderators, Learning Material Developers, Verifiers, HR, SDFs are all welcome – it is free, no charge to you.  Only 21 seats …………………….

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  • #25523

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    I guess we won’t reach our target for Cape Town, thank you for those whom have tried to distribute and sending out messages to Providers in Cape Town.  There is 380 confirmed seats and 20 seats left to book within the next hour, which I don’t think will happen.  I thank you for all your attempts.

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  • #25522

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Dear Mariska, I hope that you get this message.  Remember on the 30th November at 15:34 you mentioned a special prayer run – may I please ask that you do this special prayer run for all the providers that have heavy burdens, concerns and worries.  They are really taking it hard.  Not all individuals are Christians, but I do believe that this will be appreciated no matter what religion or culture.

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  • #25521

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Henk, herewith the questions that Cape Town will address next week, I will add more very soon.  It’s a start, but you can look at them and give me any feedback or additional questions, this is welcomed.  All questions are valid and important!!

    Cape Town – QCTO Information Session Scheduled and Confirmed for 16 February 2017

    RE: Drafted Questions that needs to be addressed to the panel of QCTO Specialists/Experts

    1. Will skills courses, short courses/skills programmes or part qualifications that lead to a Profession/Occupation be accredited by the QCTO?
    2. Does Joint Communication 1 of 2016 replace Joint Communication 1 of 2012?
    3. Will DHET re-issue the private FET Colleges that was registered and de-registered in 2015? DHET informed that private FET Colleges do not need to be registered with them and was not necessary?
    4. Must private SETA Accredited Providers complete the application form for registration that was issued in 2008?  Is there any updated version since this document?
    5. Will short courses/skills programmes be implemented in the new QCTO system, if so, will these short courses/skills programmes go through the same EISA requirements?
    6. May Accredited Providers given access to all occupational qualifications that is registered by the QCTO, have open access to the curriculum and matrix to start the process of re-aligning their current learning material to the QCTO requirements?
    7. What provision to waive the financial securities requirement is there for Providers who train custom courses and even offer some of these courses free of charge to learners that cannot afford it?
    8. What will be required by the QCTO and by DHET if the Provider does not have a business plan?
    9. Is there any recognition of long term compliance taken into account for SETA Accredited Providers by the QCTO and by DHET?
    10. If a Provider conducts training off site (in other words, if the Provider only conducts training at an Employer or Conference Centre) how will this affect the “site visit” or requirements by the QCTO or DHET?  Note: Various Providers go out to the Employer, Rural areas and take the training to the people unlike Universities and colleges that are not able to do this.
    11. With the amount of Accredited Providers that need to register with DHET, one of the requirements is the OHS Certificate, which only lasts 12 months – this is expensive.  If the applications from Accredited Providers only get actioned 12 months later, the OHS certificate will be outdated again, does this mean the providers will have to get this certificate on an annual basis?
    12. If you are training on Mount Everest, how will the OHS Certificate be issued?
    13. Is there any possibility that the QCTO, SETAs or DHET can offer these OHS Certificates at an affordable price to small providers?
    14. How is the surety criteria that is compulsory calculated or decided?  Please issue us a list of service providers that will issue this surety.
    15. If a Provider is accredited for full qualifications, and this is now registered as an occupational qualifications by the QCTO, will the QCTO automatically forward the curriculum and matrix to the Provider/Seta or must this be requested, and whom is dealing with this?
    16. The online QCTO application does not allow to fit sufficient information in the small spaces provided, can this be adjusted for more space?  If so, when will the change be?
    17. If there is no accreditation report, what do providers submit as supporting documentation when registering with DHET as an FLC provider (registered with IEB)?  Will the Registration letter be accepted or not?  If not, what must the FLC provider do then?
    18. Is the application for registration to DHET all the same for a private FET College, private accredited SETA provider and a QCTO accredited provider?
    19. Will the QCTO be able to conduct the information session in the other provinces as well, and perhaps more sessions in the bigger areas such as Gauteng, Cape Town and Durban again?
    20. If providers choose to lapse their accreditation with a SETA, may they enter into an SLA with an accredited provider and conduct business under the umbrella of the accredited provider with no processes/learning material/policies in place at all?????
    21. What is the QCTO going to put in place for current constituent Assessors and Moderators for the Occupational Qualifications?
    22. Will constituent qualified Assessors and Moderators be used for the EISA?
    23. Will the QCTO be prepared to offer SETA/Provider interventions to smooth out various issues and concerns currently in the industry?
    24. Umalusi applications for registration must be submitted prior to the DHET registration submission, is this correct?  This application from Umalusi refers to the Joint Communique 1 of 2012, will this be updated and posted on the website?
    25. The DHET application for registration needs some clarification which is:
    • Provide a 3-year financial forecast prepared by an auditor who is registered with IRBA (Independent Regulatory Board for Auditors) as indicated in document Registration Requirements as a Private College.  Estimated cost between R20 000 and R30 000.  Why is Private Providers forced to complete documents that speak college stipulations?
    • Does the new Companies Act replace the requirement for an Auditor?  Can an accountant provide the certificate?
    • The document Registration Requirements as a Private College states that the OHS certificate must be issued by a legally competent health and safety professional or organization accredited in terms of the Occupational Health and Safety Act, No 85 of 1993 – does this mean a person registered with either South African Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (SAIOSH) or South African Council for Project and Construction Management Professionals (SACPMP)?  One of the QAP’s reporting to APPETD does not recognise SACPMP certificates.  Approximate cost:  Between R2 000 and R5 000 – depending on locale
    • Who can issue a surety for a private providerThe official document states Surety issued by a financial services provider that is accredited in terms of relevant legislation to render such a service in favour of the Department of Higher Education and Training in order to protect the interests of student against any unforeseeable future event.  A QAP queries a surety issued by a registered bank.  Surety issued by an organisation that has provided this service is of the order of R7 000 to R20 000 per year while banks provide a cheaper alternative. 
    • Has there been any claims against the surety policy since its inception?
    • Is the time line of 30 June 2017 realistic?  Most of the SETA’s do not seem to be aware of the implications or implementation date of the Joint Communiqué

    26.  What will happen to all the skills programmes/short courses which are credit bearing?  Employers insist on short courses (towards a qualification) but are specific to what they want.  Will skills programmes and short courses be wiped of the system completely????

    27. Why is constituent Assessors and Moderators not registered by the QCTO and used to conduct the final EISA at the approved Assessment Centres?

    28. Why is skills programmes and/ or short courses not accepted by the QCTO?

    29. What research and scenarios have been completed to test the workplace experience component whereby Employers must open up their workplaces for learners?

    30.  Is there any possibility that the QCTO will have contact sessions with regards to the stipulations on the compulsory application for registration at DHET?

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  • #25520

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    If any member wants me to email the word document, by all means, please let me know, I will do this with pleasure!!

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  • #25519

    Hallo Lynel,
    It will be a honor for me to do this run for all of us.
    Mariska

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  • #25518

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Mariska, thank you so much!

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  • #25517

    Hi Lynel. Subsequent to the QCTO s response I have been in contact with the HW Seta regarding their entry criteria for accreditation. The last response from them was that this was a Board decision after “taking many factors into account”, and that the status quo will remain. They did however indicate that they have not received any form of communication from the QCTO in this regard. I will keep you updated .

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  • #25516

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Rudolf, thank you for this, much appreciated.  The QCTO gave us their proposed solution with the concerns raised with HW Seta.  According to their response that we received it indicated the following:

    1. A discussion should be initially be initiated between the HW SETA and the QCTO where it should be emphasised in no uncertain terms that accreditation is a delegated function and unilateral action on the part of the QAP which has such impact on the sector as a whole should have been discussed with the QCTO, as the Quality Council, in the first place.
    2. The Dept of Labour should be invited to a subsequent meeting.
    3. This matter should also be aired at a QAP Forum meeting and the QCTO position w.r.t accreditation, as a delegated quality assurance function, be put in no uncertain terms.

    Furthermore the following is noted:

    Systemic risk is a risk likely to exist across the QAP sector or in a portion of providers accredited by that QAP. If left untreated, significant risks of this type can have a detrimental impact on the quality of training and assessment for learners, the sector and the wider community and may lead to loss of confidence in the sector.

    Provider (Operational) risk is the risk an individual provider presents through its choices and actions, which, if left untreated, could have a significant detrimental impact on training and assessment outcomes for learners, the sector and the community.

    Here I think that the QCTO is scheduling the interventions to make the above very clear to the stakeholders in question.

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  • #25515

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Oh, I forgot to add the following.  It is important to note that the QCTO took our concerns and issues, conducted their own investigations per issue.  They have compiled responses of what they found and placed their feedback on what solutions are available or what actions they are going to take.  It is also evident that the QCTO took each issue, indicated a risk factor, Impact on Industry as a whole, feedback or planned solutions and the status thereof. 

    Now, this important engagement with the QCTO does not stop here.  Now, we go through the response from the QCTO and give our feedback regarding their response.   This is a continuous cycle, whereby we ensure that we give valid feedback, acknowledge their hard work and ensure that we adhere to reporting lines (still) and bring important concerns/issues to their attention.

    Thus far, I really do believe that we have come far in this journey, will continue with interventions and possible solutions to all our concerns and issues.  This journey is only in the beginning stage, so there is loads more to come!

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  • #25514

    Hi Lynel. Thanks foe this. I will endeavor to keep you in the loop as to the outcome. This could serve as an important test and control to see if the QCTO has managed to make an impact on the Setas. 

    Take care and thanks again for all your work!!

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  • #25513

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Thank you Rudolf, any updates and feedback is great, valuable and appreciated.  Thank you for your commitment and staying involved!!

    We are all involved in this process, the goal is solutions!  Thus far, we have really done well!!

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  • #25512

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    SETA’s over 100,000 opportunities

    careers civil engineeringcompressed

    The Department of Higher Education and Training says that learners can access a range of learning programmes opportunities through the 21 SETAs. Prospects include learnerships, bursaries, internships, skills programmes, apprenticeships and work-integrated learning.

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  • #25511

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Did you look at the attached document: 170117 SETAs Learning Programme Opportunities for Class of 2016 Matricula?  If you look at the totals, the Skills Programme Learning Opportunities are the second largest offered!  Now, I cannot see how skills programmes and short courses will be taken away – impossible.  However, it seems that this was not addressed if we look at the new frameworks.  Wow!!

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  • #25510

    Fiona de Beer Nel
    Participant

    How come Service Seta is not there?

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  • #25509

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Fiona?  Where do you want Services Seta to be?  Apologies for that, but I am not understanding your question here.  So I am going to ask you in the grammar I hear frequently:  Come again?

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  • #25508

    Danielle Gibb
    Participant

    Morning, It appears Service Seta is not on the LPO Matricula list. I also noticed this. Does anyone know why?

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  • #25507

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Maybe they don’t have funds?

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  • #25506

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Maybe this document should be placed as “evidence” before those that want to do away with the Skills Programmes and short courses…

    On the one hand they are advertising and ring fencing money for the “honey”, but in the background they are trying to kill the bees…

    This is a definite question to put to the QCTO on the 16th..

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  • #25505

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Henk, I agree with you.  This doesn’t make sense whatsoever – unless I am really losing my mind.  All we want is solutions, but it seems that there are things happening in the ETD industry which indicates so many grey areas, we don’t know what is going on.  Agree, this must be addressed for sure

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  • #25504

    Fiona de Beer Nel
    Participant

    Hehe Lynel on the LPO matricula list. Buthis you answered above thank you

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  • #25503

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Fiona, I am sorry that I could not give you a factual answer, but it is strange that they are not on the list?  Maybe they are, but it was not checked or amended before it was published?  That is about all I can say for now…………… sorry man

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  • #25502

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Dear Members, please be advised that I need to prepare a response to the QCTO regarding their feedback on all the concerns that we have submitted.  If no further response is received, I will take it that the concerns and issues have been addressed accordingly and that you are happy with the outcomes.  I attach the response again for your perusal

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  • #25501

    Hi Lynel, Has my issue regarding workplace experience been addressed?

    Also how do they plan to handle registration of tps to offer things like practical or knowledge modules as skills programmes (so-called short learning programmes) etc. to fill the gap that appears to be opening in this regard, leaving current short course providers in the lurch.

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  • #25500

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Jax, the issue regarding workplace was addressed, but I believe that the response received does not give us the clarity that we require, so this needs to be taken up for sure (thank you).  On the feedback received from the QCTO page 13, point 4 it reads: “We believe Occupational Qualifications are flexible to accommodate any form of learning that will enable a learner to achieve and be competent”.  This does not clearly give us the explanation that we are seeking.  So, I will address this in the response.

    Skills Programmes or modules needs to be explored, and must be given attention.  This is a grey area for us, and information regarding this will be very valuable to members.  Thank you, I will add this to the response.

    In fact, once I have drafted the full response on each area, I will rather post this in this discussion before I submit it.  Then everybody can either add or give additional recommendations to the respone that we need to submit.  I think this will be again very valuable?

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  • #25499

    agree. As far as I understand it, tps who will now be known as skills providers can offer a mix of modules, but they need to understand that the new qualifications will consist of knowledge modules, practical modules and work experience modules (and I have been told this last bit cannot be simulated but must be real). Therein lies the rub. If people cannot get the required workplace experience they will NEVER earn a whole qualification which then has a knock-on effect on their employment as employers want qualified  employees, not half-qualified employees. One of the first things they look for in employing someone is the qualification. QCTO says employers must “come to the party” in this regard – but what if they don’t? You can take a horse to the water but you cannot make it drink!

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  • #25498

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Jax, that is correct training providers are now called Skills Developement Providers (SDPs), we will get used to the grammar very soon.  Now that you mention the simulated part, this in fact came up in the Gauteng QCTO session.  Employers will not open their workplaces to all learners, this is a fact (and any authority can attempt to do handstands on their heads, do flip flops and somersaults all they can, but Employers have the right to say no, and they don’t need to answer for this).  It is a huge problem in most of the industries.  We did ask about a simulated working environment, whereby a learner will be given tasks (same as in the workplace), a logbook of activities that is done (as a normal workplace) and my understanding of the response, is that this will be allowed.

    There is a catch though, I don’t have this in writing!!!!!!  I could add this to the response to the QCTO as an additional question or clarification that we are seeking?

    Good one Jax!!

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  • #25497

    Go for it, Lynel. I asked them for proof positive that this model which has been adapted from a European model will work in SA and was given all the assurances in creation that it would – but “the proof of the pudding is in the eating” to use yet another idiom. 

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  • #25496

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    No problem Jax, will do.  It is strange that individuals like to go overseas, look at how other countries implement education and the supporting systems.  Do they ever consider our country is special, our industries are different, our laws are different, our culture is significant.  We don’t have one specific language, we are special, we have plenty!  It is important to consider all our specialities and work towards progression not the other way around.  We can have such an awesome education system if it is tested correctly with our specialities and our different industries together, addressing our needs in our country.  Who knows other countries could come to us one day and follow us instead of us trying to be them……………….

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  • #25495

    Cornea Bruyns
    Participant

    Morning All

    I have just come to join Skills Universe and would like to update all on the progress I have made thus far in this issue of Seta.

    I am registered with DOL for First aid and accredited Primary with TETA. I applied for extension of Scope to HW Seta with a signed MOU – however on delivery of my application They refused to accept it, on the grounds that as only Director of my company I do not have the sector related qualification. My qualification lends it to law and business.

    I have been speaking to everyone and their dog that would lend me an ear and have had an enormous amount of support from various people. I have been able to arrange and meeting between DHET, QCTO, HW Seta and myself. This will take place on 22 Feb 2017 at DHET’s office.

    Any comments that you would like to add that I can use at this meeting would be appreciated. Also if I have a list of names that have the same issue I can use this as proof that I am not standing alone in this fight.

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  • #25494

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    First of all Cornea, welcome to skills universe.  We hope that you will get loads of information here that will help you and others!

    You are not alone Cornea, and thank you for this.  We need to get all the members that offer first aid training onboard here.  This is very important Cornea, you are an absolute star!  This is a huge problem that industry is facing, and you managed to get a meeting scheduled with the authorities – briliant!  Please send me an email: lynel.farrell@gmail.com

    I will forward you some information that you might use, this will assist other providers as well.  Here we work together on solutions, and your comment and post came in the right time.  Glad to have you on board Cornea!!!

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  • #25493

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Calling on all First Aid Training Providers (sorry, Skills Development Providers), and all SDPs that have a problem regarding the HWSeta criteria of Director on CIPC document to have a HWSeta Qualification – please get into contact with me urgently.  We have a new member on skills universe that have managed to get a meeting with DHET, QCTO and Dol – please take this opportunity, so that this issue can be addressed and a solution be given to all.

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  • #25492

    Danielle Gibb
    Participant

    Hi, Lynel I am in the same predicament. Please add me to the list. training@bccci.co.za

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  • #25491

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Danielle, will do immediately.  If you know of any other providers with the same concern, please spread the word.  What Cornea is going to do, will have a huge impact on industy – it is crucial that we all get on board and support this engagement!  Thank you Danielle!

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  • #25490

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    I await Cornea’s email, and will forward all interested provider’s email addresses and contact details to her!

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  • #25489

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Ok, got Cornea’s details!  Dear Members, if you have been part of the concerns addressed to the QCTO regarding the new criteria with HWSeta and the DoL instruction, that upsetted the whole industry – please pop me an email, so that we know that Cornea is supported in this very important meeting.

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  • #25488

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Please add us as well – henk@asorip.co.za

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  • #25487

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    No problem Henk, will do.  Thank you!

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  • #25486

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    So I have 2 names – that’s it?  No other Providers that offer first aid, health and safety at all (NATIONWIDE) – did I miss something, if so, please give me an update.

    I am 100% sure, that this issue still stands and have not been solved as yet.  This is the opportunity, we need support.  If not on this portal, please email me.  We need a list of names.  The bigger the list, the better the outcome for everyone.

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  • #25485

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    My questions:

    The National First Aid and Emergency Care Training Standards Committee was formed under the then South African Medical and Dental Council, now the Health Professions Council of South Africa , in order to establish and maintain standardisation in first aid and emergency training, particularly at the lower levels.

     

    They divided existing first aid and emergency care training courses into eight (8) levels, categorised as:

    • Levels 1 – 3: Basic Life Support (BLS)
    • Levels 4 – 6: Intermediate Life Support (ILS)
    • Levels 7 – 8: Advanced Life Support (ALS)

     

    Institutions could then be approved in terms of the General Safety Regulation 3(4)(d) by the Chief Inspector to issue a valid certificate of competency in first aid.

     

    The following conditions were / are in place:

    • Training must be done by qualified instructors.
    • The validity of the certificates issued may not exceed 3 years from the date of issue.
    • Certificates must indicate the level of the course.
    • Any other condition as determined by the Chief Inspector.
    • The certificates of approval can be withdrawn at the discretion of the Chief Inspector.

     

    Now – this new “move” raises these concerns as the current DoL courses as set out above are not unit standard based and therefore “hold no” NQF credits.

    1. Who aligned the current levels to unit standards?
    1. The DoL system “allows” for the learners to be “re-skilled” at least every three (3) years. This was so that learners could stay abreast new developments in the first aid field. An excellent example would be new procedures based on automated external defibrillators. (AED)
    1. Competency on unit standard(s) does not “run out”. Therefore, how are you going to compel a learner to “redo” a unit standard every three (3) years?
    1. And – if you are to compel a learner to redo the same unit standard over and over, what does that imply for the rest of the unit standards, NO the whole NQF ideal of facilitating access to, mobility and progression within education and training.
    1. How was the decision reached that the HWSETA must be held accountable for accreditation?
    1. The HWSETA viewpoint (2013) was that they do not accredit single unit standards, only skills programmes and full qualifications and potential providers were advised to align to the full qualifications.  Currently their website also just shows skills programmes and full qualifications… That being stated, who will be held responsible for additional costs towards programme alignment etc? And please – the system was working, why change this now, and who stands to gain the most?
    1. The “powers that be” surely must be cognisant of the fact that there are several different unit standards listed on SAQA that deals with first aid, and that these unit standards are spread out across the scopes of different SETA’s, from the MQA to the merSETA? (27+ at a glance)
    1. Why then do they not allow you to “apply” to your primary accreditation SETA for accreditation?
    1. If the SETA(s) are closed down, who will be held accountable then? Please, do not say that this will never happen.
    1. First Aid training is regarded as “compulsory training” in the South African industry. Have they considered costing implications for both the Skills Development Provider and the businesses?
    1. 5.     Does this process also influence the SA Red Cross Society, the St. John Ambulance and the SA First Aid League?
    2. 6.     Current facilitators / instructors that are being used by DoL providers will not be accepted as Assessors unless they have completed unit standard based training on First Aid. This is directly in contrast with the current DoL requirements that state that the current facilitators / instructors must at least have a Level 3 certificate and an instructor’s certificate.
    3. 7.     They will not accept “assessors” that did a first aid course just to get registered.  The person should also have at least three years of experience after training….
    4. 8.     The regional offices in the Western Cape instructed as follows:

    You should also be aware of the fact that the HWSETA made the following “alignments”, and also keep in mind that they do not do single unit standards – you will need to select and develop material for a Skills Programme that include the unit standard..

    First Aid Level 1 – Unit Standard 119567 HWSETA

    First Aid Level 2 – Unit Standard 120496 HWSETA

    Now – the ultimate blow…

    First Aid Level 3 – Unit Standard 376480 MQA

    You will need to apply to the MQA to be accredited against this unit standard, although this very same unit standard falls under Qualification 376480 that does fall under the HWSETA.  And for those that have worked with the MQA before, they have their own strict rules…

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  • #25484

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    My concerns in Word format…. looks a lot better….

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  • #25483

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Ag, but you are my Yster!!!!!!!  You know Henk, you surprise me every time.  Wow, what a wonderful piece of art (I meant input).  thank you so much for this Henk

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  • #25482

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    One more sleep and Cape Town will be getting the chance to attend the QCTO Information Session.  I am jealous that I will not be there by you tomorrow.  I will be thinking of you all non-stop.  You have to please give me feedback and tell me everything!!!  Any last questions that you want me to add to the list for tomorrow?

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  • #25481

    Leon Gouws
    Participant

    Hi Lynel.
    Please ask Cornea Bruyns To add HDM Productions as one of the Providers accredited through DOL for first aid levels 1,2 and 3 but nor accredited through HWSETA to the list. We are accredited primary with CHIETA and have extension of scope with a number of other related SETAs MerSETA, CETA, TETA. We operate in the construction industry as well as Petro Chemical industry and have no interest to try and get accreditation with HWSETA. We tried for at least 3 years to get extension of scope from them but they choose to ignore us or they keep moving the goal posts. (I have enough proof of this). Thus we have given up trying to work with them. There core focus has nothing to do with the environment in which we operate and I don’t see the reason to try and become accredited with them.

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  • #25480

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Leon, thank you.  I will add HDM Productions for sure.  Any provider offering first aid (whether accreditation with HW Seta or other) is welcome to add their names to the list.  Here the importance is the stipulation that DoL have given, thus it has a negative impact on all.  Thank you for this information, I will add this to my response to the QCTO as well.  Together we will get solutions Leon.  We are trying our best to communicate with the QCTO once all other attempts have failed.  Thus far the QCTO have really made various attempts, and we appreciate them stepping in.  Unfortunately, we have to deal with the negatives in order to receive back the positives (solutions).  Your input is very important, thank you so much Leon.  I await the list to grow with more names, but it seems that some providers have given up – we need to get these individuals back on this journey!!

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  • #25479

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Calling on all Providers Nationwide that offers Health and Safety, First Aid Training – remember the requirement: 

    7.6. One or more of the applicant SDP Directors appearing on the CIPC or NPO registration document and seeking accreditation or programme approval with the HWSETA shall provide proof that they possess sector qualifications with minimum of 120 credits, and a minimum of three (3) years’ experience in the field.

    If you have found a solution, then that is fantastic.  If you have not, please forward me your Name.  We are currently making a list of providers so that Cornea that will be meeting with the QCTO, DHET and HWSeta next week on the 22 February, can show them that she is not the only provider that has a concern with this stipulation.

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  • #25478

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Another concern –

     

    We had to register with the Allied Health Professions Council of South Africa (AHPCSA) so that learners that wanted to qualify for CPD points could either attend our FA courses, or present them. That by implication meant that we had learners from the professions of Ayurveda, Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture, Chiropractic, Homeopathy, Naturopathy, Osteopathy, Phytotherapy, Therapeutic Aromatherapy, Therapeutic Massage Therapy, Therapeutic Reflexology and Unani-Tibb in some of our classes. (See the AHPCSA Board Notice 188 of 2012 Section 7 and the Continuing Professional Development Criteria and Guidelines for CPD Service Providers Section 3.4.)

     

    These professionals were more than satisfied with the services that they got. Did the “powers that be” consult with these councils?

     

    Where do these qualified people go to obtain CPD points? Or will this be another curve ball thrown at the providers “after the fact”?  

     

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  • #25477

    Hi Lynel

    All the concerns that have been raised relates to a host of Setas. There is one,however that stands out at the moment namely the HW Seta. They appear to be a law onto themselves and if you confront them, their standard reply is:”Our Board laid down these policies. We simply just implement them..” There are three very pressing issues regarding them at present(which have all be raised at this forum before):

    – The fact that you can only accredit with them if at least one of your company directors are qualified with a HW Seta qualification to the value of 120 credits.

    – There recent announcement that SDF s need not be qualified- as long as they are appointed by the levy payer ( in writing) then this is ok with them!

    – The latest debacle about First Aid Training where DOL declared that all providers must from now on be accredited with the HW Seta , but the Seta do not accredit single Unis Standards etc.. ( Most other Setas also have First Aid in their domains…)

    Clearly these aspects need to be grouped togethet when talking to the QCTO so that the message does not get lost somewhere..

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  • #25476

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Henk, this is very valuable, I am 100% sure that Cornea are making notes as we address various issues and our understanding of this issue.  Always valuable input from you and your team Henk.  Thank you so much.

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  • #25475

    Hi Lynel

    I have two more that you can add to the list and I am meeting with Cornea as well tomorrow.

    –  Alderson Emegency Medical Training: Sharon Alderson: 0828962008;salderson@telkomsa.net

    –  Rulan Medical Training: Yolande van Wyk: 0824669094:

    Hope this helps

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  • #25474

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    HI Rudolf, agree with you on these issues.  The problem that we are facing here is that the QCTO did not make this stipulation and are in fact questioning this stipulation/requirement.  This is where it gets very interesting, as the QCTO have heard about this issue, we have submitted the concerns to them and they are clearly taking this forward with the attention it needs.  The meeting that Cornea have arranged with the QCTO, DHET and HWSeta is the next best thing that has happened.  Again, the QCTO is there!!!  It seems that all the months of work, is now slowly but surely moving forward!

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  • #25473

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Rudolf, this is fantastic.  Thank you so much.  Wow, things are really moving on here.  I am sure that Cornea is finding this very helpful.  Thank you for giving us more names, this is really appreciated.  The list is growing, this is how it must be done for sure. 

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  • #25472

    Cleo Black
    Participant

    Well THAT was a disappointment! When I asked where material developers fit in and at what stage of the process we would interface with the QCTO to ensure that our material is up to their”standardised” requirements I was told “That is not our mandate.” SO essentially whats going to happen is the following:

    1- We developers are going to develop material in line with whichever QCTO curriculum we need.

    2-We will sell that material (developed to the best of our knowledge and abilities as we have only a curriculum and NO regulatory body/ evaluation of any kind to guide us) to the providers, who will already need to be accredited with the QCTO.

    3-The providers will train the learners.

    4-The learners will be expected to pass the EISA.

    5- The QCTO will realise with a horrific jolt that they messed up to an inconceivable degree by not taking just a smidge of initiative and querying their mandate or at the very least referring material developers to whoever’s mandate it  IS to ensure that material is of a certain standard. How can there possibly be standardisation when they refuse to standardise the material being developed and trained? My related questions as well as my bosses questions were skirted and seasoned with just a light touch of bureaucracy which is clearly expected to be enough for us to continue to develop learning material that is of a high enough quality to delivery results.

    The fly by night developers that are currently driving prices into the ditch will only be able to to so more now that they have noone to answer to…that is until the first crop of QCTO learners fail their “exams” due to the fact that the QCTO does not seem to believe that learning material (without which there would be no learning, no qualified learners and no learning industry of any kind) is not a top priority. Disheartening and extremely frustrating to say the least.

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  • #25471

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    It feels as if my world is falling apart here.  Oh no Cleo.  At the moment I am reading your post, and will read this again.  Need to think about this very carefully

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  • #25470

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    It is strange to me that no one seems to get to grips with the material being used for training.  We are going from unpredictable and inconsistent evaluation of training materials, to non-existent evaluation.  Mildly disappointed in this.

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  • #25469

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Nigel, we need to get more feedback on this session.  What’s not addressed accordingly, must be put forward to Durban Session (the last session) the last opportunity to have the voices heard.  We cannot give up now. 

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  • #25468

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Where is all the members that attended, come on, we need more feedback.  Cleo, thank you for this, it is important to get feedback.  We cannot expect you to give all the feedback here, there were many members at this session.  We need to know what was addressed accordingly and what wasn’t at all.  We have to put our information together in order to make the KZN session a success.  Please, we cannot give up now.  We are in this together to make a positive difference within the ETD industry

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  • #25467

    The Assessment Quality Partners who will be responsible for “accrediting” providers for specific programmes under the auspices of the QCTO would be responsible for this, I believe.

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  • #25466

    Kate Sani
    Participant

    This is good news. The QCTO focus is on output – learner throughput- and providers are responsible for the “input” which includes materials, etc.  As a provider, I would like the freedom to develop and source my own materials; and even be free to prescribe textbooks if I so wish, and as long as my learners are successful it is irrelevant whether or not my materials are “approved” by the QCTO or any other entity. In fact I would prefer to not have to use “QCTO approved” nor AQP approved materials. 

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  • #25465

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Interesting concept…………. need to absorb this kind of thinking now.  Thanks Kate, this is looking at this whole process in some other light.  I am going to say again, interesting.

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  • #25464

    Kate, I so agree with you. The proof of the pudding is in the eating! if learners are successful as a result of what you provide, then that’s all the approval you need.

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  • #25463

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Okay, you got me hooked (not convinced 100% as yet), but I need time to absorb this.  Before going all bonkers and saying no, no, no – I need to take this in, think about it, look at this in a different angle, see your point of view and reflect back to various case scenarios.

    The proof is in the eating.  Strange that I have not thought about this, but then again, come on, I am blond hey

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  • #25462

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Jax, you are going to the KZN session (am I right?) ……… If so, we might have to chat.  It will be the last chance for providers to ensure that concerns are addressed.  I need a group of reliable individuals.  I am thinking of driving down for this, but I am not sure if KZN needs me there?

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  • #25461

    That’s the plan – if I can remember when and where it is 🙂

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  • #25460

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Ok, herewith the details:

    Date:  9 March

    Time: 09:00 AM till 13:30 (it might go on a bit longer)

    Venue: Coastal KZN TVET College, Durban Campus, 1 Jameson Crescent, Durban

    Okay, Jax, now you got all the details!!!!

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  • #25459

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    I am in full agreement about the material being used.  We have even “received” materials from some of the SETA’s that is, to say the least, horribly inadequate… The providers, at the end of the day, are the experts in their respective fields, and that is why they are accredited…

    I am however not so sure about the final summative assessment not being “standardised”… if we are not going to “stick” to standardised summative assessments, we will be thrown back ages in that within industries “training will not be recognised”…

    Example: The teller at bank A does all the courses and when he/she applies for a position and bank B the training is not recognised… (Remember the old days)

    And sorry – I am not trusting the external moderators (verifiers) to be judges on standardisation… Sorry..

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  • #25458

    Cleo Black
    Participant

    But Kate, if the material is not”‘approved”what assurance could you possibly have that the material will actually cover all the requirements to get the learners through their final exam? The answer is that there is NO way that you could without at least one official from a body such as the QCTO passing over the material at least once. A curriculum is simply NOT enough guidance.

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  • #25457

    Cleo Black
    Participant

    “IF” is the key word here. Surely its not fair to learners or to yourself as a provider to operate on IF?

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  • #25456

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Henk, you have a point.  The question here is, who is the external moderators / verifiers?

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  • #25455

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Agree Cleo, the word IF gives meaning to the word ASSUME, and we all know what happens when we break this word down, hey?

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  • #25454

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Now we are talking business!  Thanks for that Cleo!!

    so this is my understanding (and correct me if I am wrong please)

    1. Legacy qualifications get aligned to the new occupational qualification formats.

    2. Industry, experts get together and give input with regards to what needs to be in the curriculum.

    3. A full Qualification Document, Curriculum Document and Assessment Specifications is published

    4. Now you align your currentl learning material to meet all the requirements of the 3 given documents.

    Here is the catch!  If you do not cover all the requirements from the Qualification Document, Curriculum Document and Assessment Specifications – the learners will not be able to achieve a competent result on the EISA.  This in turn will be closely monitored.  Thus, the providers that give bad training, sub-standard learning material will slowly but surely be given the boot.

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  • #25453

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hold that thought now.  This is more complicated than what I have given in summary.  Clearly there is a lot of work to be done in order to align the current legacy learning material to the new occupational qualifications – its not an overnight job for sure.

    Good Learning Material Developers, will find this easy to do, and will meet all the requirements – the bogus shenanigans is the ones that will take chances and continue to deliver a bad service with outdated information, and will not meet all the requirements for sure.

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  • #25452

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    That in itself presents the problem… external moderators / verifiers that we have had from the SETA did not even have the moderators unit standard on their SoR… let alone Unit Standards 7975 / 15191 / 115755 (these I consider the bare minimum)…

    There are numerous others as well, but I think you get the point.

    And with respect to all of them, because I am sure that there are excellent verifiers as well, I feel that the SETA’s are looking for people that would “enforce” their opinions on the providers without thinking or asking the Why / How etc questions…

    Not only do they need to be proactive thinkers, they should also be business minded..

    But then, that is just my opinion…

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  • #25451

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    I don’t think that is just your opinion Henk.  In the SAQA publication “Criteria and Guidelines for Assessment of NQF Registered Unit standards and Qualifications” the following description is given as the SAQA expectation of external moderators:

    Individuals who will be external moderators should be experienced, know the learning area well, have undergone training for moderation, and have credibility among assessors and within their area of knowledge and expertise. A high level of personal and interpersonal skills are also required.

    Somewhere I think the wheels came off, as clearly this expectation was never fully or universally applied.

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  • #25450

    It’s more than that, Lynel. To explain some of the processes, I have spent more than 6 months aligning our existing qualification to the occupation: Company secretary. The curriculum document runs to 187 pages in length (currently!).  It must consist of knowledge modules, (KMs – theory), Practical modules (PMs) and Workplace Experience Modules (WEMs).  Before that, we had to be “elected” as the “Development Quality Partner” (DQP) by our stakeholders. In addition , if you want to be the “Assessment Quality Partner” (AQP), you also have to be elected by your stakeholders – and this is a bunfight (a) because you have to assess nationally and (b) because there’s a whole lot of competitors out there all wanting the bun – you cannot share it. In QCTO’s model, there can be only ONE AQP per occupation – so all those who are for example currently offering training for say “sales rep” cannot do the “integrated, summative, external assessment”  which has to be done by the AQP. In other words, even though you may be an accredited provider under the current dispensation, both training and assessing learners and uploading results to the NLRD, you cannot do that any longer. You can be accredited by the QCTO as a skills development provider but you cannot, unless you are the AQP, do the assessments or the uploads. I am assuming that the AQPs will be responsible for quality assuring learning materials (but don’t hold me to this).  There is not much material out there and is likely to spawn a whole new industry. I do hope that I am making sense – this is a complicated and complex process – certainly not a quick flip of the switch.

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  • #25449

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Well, I personally “vet” all the verifiers that conducts visits to our site… and I am basing my statement on facts… and I agree the wheels came off.

    But they came of due to the fact that the “powers that be” are so busy “enforcing” that they forgot to keep their own houses in order…

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  • #25448

    Pamela Huygen
    Participant

    Hi all,

    I was at the info session in Cape Town yesterday and I’ve been mulling it over endlessly during a sleepless night.

    This is going to end very badly for everyone.

    This process cannot and will not work.

    There is an absolute DESPERATION in the industry for regulating learning material developers. I had such high hopes that the QCTO will address this and I was bitterly disappointed yesterday. We were simply shot down and told that it is not part of their mandate.

    Here’s what is currently happening in the industry with the SETA system:
    There are people out there who write “learning material” that is worth absolutely nothing. It’s not worth the paper it is printed on. We are talking a 20 page manual, including the intro, not even all the necessary forms and that then leaves you with 10 pages of actual content that is sometimes not even related to the unit standard.

    The provider, unknowingly buys this nonsense which means now they are out of pocket. This material gets to the SETA for evaluation and that is where it is stopped from being trained. This process takes anywhere from 3 – 6 months and in some cases, up to a year.
    Where we are heading now, with no verification process of the learning material at all is disastrous to say the least.

    What is to stop more bogus developers from popping up? How much money will providers lose on this type of material? At the end of the day, who is going to pay for this mess? THE LEARNER!!!

    What I see happening is that materials will be trained for how long ever the qualification takes to complete, let’s say for example 3 years. Now the learner is going for his EISA. There was no standardised or even verified material during his training. Yes, hopefully he was trained according to the curriculum and specifications put forward by QCTO, but let’s be honest, this is South Africa. There will be people who are going to take major chances up to this point while pocketing the learner’s money.

    Right so, back to my point… Now the learner has completed his studies and he’s doing his EISA. The material was never verified so there is no guarantee that this person will be ready and properly prepared for this assessment.

    QCTO stated that if the number of learners coming from a provider passing the EISA is not acceptable, it is grounds for them to revoke your accreditation.

    This tells me that to root out bad learning material, no verification that everything is covered to have your learner ready and that he has a fair chance for the EISA, is going to take 3 years!?!?!?!

    And then possibly have your accreditation revoked as well?!?!?

    This is madness!!!! This CANNOT happen. We cannot stand for this!
    Yes, sometimes the SETAs are mad with their expectations and Services is forever changing the goal post but at least they stop insufficient learning material, BEFORE the learner is exposed to this stuff.

    With QCTO the can of worms will only be opened AFTER the learner has paid for his training, spent a number of years studying, fails his EISA and the provider has their accreditation revoked.

    Madness, MADNESS I tell you!

    I will not stand for this and SmartScript as a company will not stand for this. As a company, we are sick and tired of fly by night developers in the industry. We are sick and tired of sub standard learning material damaging the reputation of all developers and we will push with all our might to stop this from happening.

    It is bad for the developer, bad for the provider and worse for the learner.

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  • #25447

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Pamela, okay first I need you to take a deep breath (seriously).  I hear you, and I understand every single word that you have put down here.  I do!

    I have read your comments a couple of times now, and have one question.

    In who’s mandate does the standard of learning material for the new occupational qualifications fall with?

    We need to look at who is responsible for what, and then we take it from there.  Yes, you have every right to be upset, but maybe we need to get to the responsibilities of each Authority, Sub-Authority, Almost-Authority.  Then we place them with their responsibilities in an organogram format – this will give us the indication of who does what and whom do we address our concerns correctly.

    I wish I was there yesterday in Cape Town sitting next to you …………

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  • #25446

    Cleo Black
    Participant

    That’s one question we wish we had an answer to Lynel:/ if we knew that i think we would all feel a lot less panicky.

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  • #25445

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Cleo, did you stand up and ask?  Did anyone ask who has this mandate?

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  • #25444

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Professional body for Learning Material Developers?

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  • #25443

    Cleo Black
    Participant

    i was ready to attempt to ascertain whose mandate it actually was but at that stage i really didn’t see the point. a few questions had been circumvented already and I didn’t see an answer would be forthcoming if it had not been forthcoming when I asked the initial question…wheres the initiative to at least TRY to help the people who keep the wheels of the industry turning? It’s something we will follow up with when a visit is paid to the QCTO in Hatfield.

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  • #25442

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Or perhaps we need to look into establishing an institution that covers a couple of areas for providers – lets call it The ETD Warrior Institution?

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  • #25441

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Change approved!!

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  • #25440

    Cleo, the QCTO simply does not have the human resources or the capacity – bottom line.

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  • #25439

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Then Jax, we have to do it ourselves.

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  • #25438

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    “Cry ‘Havoc!’, and let slip the dogs of war”.

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  • #25437

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    I read, hear and see your point here.  When a question is asked, we request an answer.  If the answer is not suitable, we need to have the opportunity to get clarification and factual information.  the confusion comes in when no one wants to be accountable or responsible.

    Thats where we come in – we are accountable and responsible for the service we give.  Our learners are priority, our material must speak quality, we want skilled learners – we don’t accept poor service, sub-standard training nor do we accept kak material (oops, ran out of words there, apologies)

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  • #25436

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Jax, then we help the QCTO to help us to help them – together we can make a positive difference. 

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  • #25435

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Yes, it seems that we have long journey ahead of us.  But Nigel, we have never been afraid to work?  I welcome the work load – I will rather have work, than sit on a pavement begging for money – I will not become the next blond hobo

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  • #25434

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Yes, let the The ETD Warrior Institution be established and concur the barren lands…

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  • #25433

    sylvia hammond
    Keymaster

    Hi – just to respond on the training material first. I took detailed notes on this.
    The QCTO made it absolutely clear that they DO NOT HAVE A MANDATE to cover training material.
    They are a quality assurance council but it applies to the qualification development and to the providers.

    Personally, I believe that there are two options to deal with this issues, and options under either route:
    First option: to start a movement to have the QCTO legislative mandate changed.
    I would think that could be either via the DHET Minister or
    the Parliamentary Portfolio Committee on Higher Education and Training – or
    both simultaneously to try to move it along speedily.
    But noting that with the mandate would have come along funding and manpower, etc. That could come if the SETA QAPs (ETQAs) are devolved back into the QCTO.
    Second option: to create a professional body for material development.
    To my mind to prevent too much proliferation it might sit well under one of the existing professional bodies – possibly ASDSA.
    But I also wonder about the academic world – what about setting up a professional body in conjunction with one of the adult education departments within a university? Given the inherent transformation objectives of skills development, they might be a worthwhile collaboration.
    Interested in your thoughts – maybe we should start a separate discussion and project – just on How should we deal with material development?

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  • #25432

    My thoughts are what the publishers are doing in this arena – maybe they should be publishing text books or student manuals and lecturers guides. Obviously they would be interested in “high uptake” programmes and we don’t know what those are yet.  also they have built in QA processes to ensure that what they publish is up to standard – they do this for school textbooks, so why not for skills development?

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  • #25431

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Thanks Sylvia, since that little thought dropped, already been wandering along the paths of collaboration and cooperation. Will check out over the weekend and see where the gaps are and where the possibilities. I hear what you say about proliferation, but I think we need to compare purposes and practitioners against existing body focus. I am not sure there is anyone that specifically addresses the direction we may be looking at.

    I think a separate discussion on dealing with material development may be appropriate at this stage.

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  • #25430

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hmmm I am hooked again.  Good idea.  Nigel, if you had to give a name to such a Professional Body or Institution that needs to be born, what would you call it?

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  • #25429

    sylvia hammond
    Keymaster

    Agree Nigel about a separate discussion – and hear you on focus.

    When I have collected all of my notes from the QCTO session that deal with material development – I will put it together and start a discussiion. 

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  • #25428

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Sylvia, you always bring light to the darkness.  Giving the overall disappointing feeling, but in the same breath, giving options.  Love it!!

    Concur with seperate discussion on this very important topic.  We must ensure that all the reputable learning material developers are all on board for this!

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  • #25427

    Cleo Black
    Participant

    Pam will definitely be interested in this.

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  • #25426

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Getting support already on a topic that is not posted yet?  Good for you Cleo, thank you.  I guess Sylvia, you have your work cut out for the weekend!!!  Cleo it is important to look at all the issues, and the learning material is a huge concern. 

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  • #25425

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Particularly as we are talking about learning material development, I think anything along these lines would be great if we could honour our fallen Warrior Narina.  She would have definitely been in the front of the line on this topic.

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  • #25424

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    What a nice thought Nigel.  So the name will be:  The FFS Institution in memory of Narina.  That would have made her proud for sure.

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  • #25423

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Now that brings back memories and perhaps sums up her expressive character.

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  • #25422

    Des Squire
    Participant

    Hi Sylvia,

    One would assume that if the QCTO has a mandate for qualification development then it should stand to reason that this should be extended to cover quality of the actual material???

    I think the QCTO must make a point of raising this in terms of having the mandate changed and then discussing the entire issue at the parliamentary committee meeting as you suggest. Failure to do so will render the entire exercise FUTILE.

    Who puts these mandates together and why do they not think outside of the box?  

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  • #25421

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Well, she was a fighter and had such a good heart.  The expression FFS was always there, and it was her saying.  We all want to say that, but Narina said it best!  I would not go against the name at all, for Narina and in memory of!

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  • #25420

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Whahaha Des, who puts these mandates together and why do they not think outside the box?  Thank you for this.

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  • #25419

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Shaping the future of education and skills – Minister Radebe addresses WEF 2017

    https://commons.wikimedia.org
    The following report was issued by the Government Information Service on behalf of the Department for Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation. (Details below)
     
    “I submit – that the world is changing at an incredible pace. Last year at WEF we underscored the fact that the world is undergoing a Fourth Industrial Revolution. The jobs that have driven rapid economic development in the past, from agriculture to light manufacturing, are disappearing and the jobs of the future will be ever more technology-intensive – requiring a higher-skilled workforce. To access these jobs, people will need skills to be able to analyze, adapt, problem solve, manage and work in an increasingly connected way. There is therefore no more time to lose and this discussion comes at a very opportune moment.
     
    Most countries today are competing in a knowledge-based global market, where the key differentiators are skills, expertise, know-how and the ability to deliver excellent services speedily, with agility and efficiently.
     
    In other words, and for every country, economic competitiveness increasingly depends on the quality of our education systems.
     
    What are the global lessons in Skills Development?
     
    What have other countries done that has worked?
     
    • First, begin early, in the first few years of life; as well as introduce literacy and soft skill development modules in schools. In most African countries, large numbers of school-goers drop out early; and large parts of the workforce have little knowledge and few skills that would make them more employable. Early childhood interventions can make a huge difference. Introducing modules focused on literacy and soft skills as part of basic and secondary education and training programs can also help break the vicious circle of the unskilled being trapped in jobs that require fewer skills, and establish accessible pathways for acquiring skills.
     
    • Second, Government has a critical role to play, mainly in regulation, standard setting, Monitoring and Evaluation (M & E), and the financing of skills development. Also, M&E plays an important role in the design and delivery of skills programs. I cannot stress this enough. Always evaluate programs, and feed these lessons back to policymakers so that they can make informed decisions about improving the design and implementation of programs. The effectiveness of the skills development programs I have mentioned above has been driven by strong M & E systems.
     
    • Third, ensure stakeholders play a critical role in system. Stakeholders should have an important voice at the table at the policy level and be involved in decision making at the institutional level.
     
    • Fourth, raising the productivity of the informal sector is important. We need to find mechanisms to unlock and open up a stronger informal sector, and ensure that we enhance their productivity through skills development will lead to faster economic growth.
     
    We are all eminently aware that competing in todays’ globally interconnected, and almost, daily shifting, economy is a complex affair. Our countries not only need advanced education both technical and vocational-it needs dynamic, fast paced and ever evolving skills, and also, a flexible workforce that can adjust to these rapid shifts in demand.
     
    That is why investing in education and skills, the right skills, I must add, has become such a vital element to a country’s economic growth, development and competitiveness. What may these ‘’right skills’’ be? Whom amongst us know in which areas they will produce ‘bang for our buck’, relative to our respective economies, and will it yield the desired economic benefits-of inclusive growth and development that we all so desperately desire?
     
    In such an acutely dynamic fast paced world education systems must be oriented towards producing skills and young people who have both strong foundational skills as well as specific skills for jobs. What, therefore, should be the basis of a more informed and urgent public narrative on education and skills be?
     
    We know that the demand for job-specific skills has been growing around the world. Globally, corporates suggest that the quality and supply of skilled labor is a major binding constraint to growth. Employers around the world are also suddenly demanding that new hires have both technical and “soft” skills that should have been acquired earlier on in their educational foundational phases. Thus, we are required to rethink, more purposefully and deliberately, the inter, and intra-dynamics and relationships between education and skills and jobs.”
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  • #25418

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    This gives us food for thought  (or fuel to fire, not sure)………….. the important role in the design and delivery of skills programs.  Strange that this is addressed in the World Economic Forum, but somehow this does not seem to be in place – interesting …………….. If it is so important, why is there nothing in place, or am I sitting this pot miss completely.  Your input or understanding would be appreciated.

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  • #25417

    Pamela Huygen
    Participant

    hahaha that sounds about right

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  • #25416

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    So you approve!!

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  • #25415

    Pamela Huygen
    Participant

    My statement to the QCTO on Thursday (before they dropped the bomb), was that there is almost a feeling of desperation in the industry to regulate learning material development.   

    I am definitely up for a regulatory body or the FFS institution haha. 

    Narina and I have been fighting to get the best possible material out there for 15 years now and we both had such high hopes for QCTO and working right along side them, so I was quite emotional after the session. 

    We’d love to help however we can to overcome the obstacles that lay ahead of us. 

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  • #25414

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    That’s the spirit Pamela.  We will continue to seek solutions.  The learning material is very important – there must be a standard for sure.  Thank you for your commitment!

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  • #25413

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Dear Members, once we have received feedback regarding the QCTO Informatio session from last week, we will re-look at all the questions, reduce/amend/add additional questions – which we need to take forward to the KZN session which is scheduled for the 9th March.  Please, let’s work on this together, so that we can have a successful session in KZN.  This is our last chance to address our questions/concerns and issues.

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  • #25412

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Dear concerned Members, just to inform you – once the KZN QCTO Information session have been done and dusted, then we will combine all the comments and feedback together and have one summary of questions and answers.  This will also be used to draft a response to the QCTO response that we received directly from the QCTO on various issues that we have addressed and submitted for comment.  The draft will be posted, and input will be required before we submit again.  I trust this is in order!

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  • #25411

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    KZN – QCTO Information Session: 9th March 2017

    Starting Time    09:00 sharp (please get there earlier, as you need to sign the register and get your seat, you don’t want the session to be delayed!!

    Until what time?  Scheduled till 13:00 but this can be extended, pending on the questions and open forum – please be patient and allow additional time. 

    Venue:  KZN TVET College, Durban Campus, 1 Jameson Crescent, Durban

    RE: Drafted Questions that needs to be addressed to the panel of QCTO Specialists/Experts

    Assessors / Moderators

    1. Why is constituent Assessors and Moderators not registered by the QCTO and used to conduct the final EISA at the approved Assessment Centres?
    2. Will constituent qualified Assessors and Moderators be used for the EISA?
    3. What is the QCTO going to put in place for current constituent Assessors and Moderators for the Occupational Qualifications?

     

    Short Courses / Skills Programmes

    1. Will skills courses, short courses/skills programmes or part qualifications that lead to a Profession/Occupation be accredited by the QCTO?
    2. Will short courses/skills programmes be implemented in the new QCTO system, if so, will these short courses/skills programmes go through the same EISA requirements?
    3. Why is skills programmes and/ or short courses not accepted by the QCTO?
    4. What will happen to all the skills programmes/short courses which are credit bearing?  Employers insist on short courses (towards a qualification) but are specific to what they want.  Will skills programmes and short courses be wiped of the system completely????

    DHET compulsory application before the 30th June 2017

    1. Will DHET re-issue the private FET Colleges that was registered and de-registered in 2015? DHET informed that private FET Colleges do not need to be registered with them and was not necessary?
    2. What provision to waive the financial securities requirement is there for Providers who train custom courses and even offer some courses free of charge to learners that cannot afford it?
    3. How is the surety criteria that is compulsory calculated or decided? 
    4. If there is no accreditation report, what do providers submit as supporting documentation when registering with DHET as an FLC provider (registered with IEB)?  Will the Registration letter be accepted or not?  If not, what must the FLC provider do then?
    5. Does the new Companies Act replace the requirement for an Auditor?  Can an accountant provide the certificate?

     

    OHS Audit Report / Certificate

    1. If a Provider conducts training off site (in other words, if the Provider only conducts training at an Employer or Conference Centre) how will this affect the “site visit” or requirements by the QCTO or DHET?  Note: Various Providers go out to the Employer, Rural areas and take the training to the people unlike Universities and colleges that are not able to do this.
    2. If you are training on Mount Everest, how will the OHS Certificate be issued?
    3. Is there any possibility that the QCTO, SETAs or DHET can offer these OHS Certificates at an affordable price to small providers?
    4. If a SDP conducts training only on Employer premises, must the Provider submit an OHS certificate and audit report per site where training is conducted?

     

    Learning Material

    1. When SDPs align their current “legacy” learning material to the new format and requirements set out in the QCTO Qualification, Curriculum and Assessment Specification, will this learning material be evaluated and approved?  If so, by whom?
    2. Whom is responsible for the formative assessment instrument, the SDP or the AQP?
    3. What guarantee can we have that the EISA will be in line with the Learning Material that are aligned to the Curriculum, Qualification Document and the Assessment Specification given on the QCTO webstie?

     

    Certification

    1. Is there any space in this new structure for Occupational Specific Certificates (the old skills programmes or short courses)?
    2. If a learner has completed the ODETDP Qualification (legacy) and have achieved this qualification, is there a process to convert this qualification to the occupational qualification automatically?

     

    RPL

    1. How will RPL be conducted in the new system, for example:  natural occurring evidence collection?  How will this be addressed for RPL and what is the difference in the EISA?
    2. What is the process that needs to be taken for RPL before the learner may sit for the EISA?
    3. Will there be a RPL toolkit available per occupational qualification?
    4. RPL is about recognising prior/existing/current learning and experience.  What assessment tools and instruments have been implemented to cater for this?

     

    EISA

    1. What is the percentage mark for achievement 33.3% / 50% / 80% or will this be a case of competent or not yet competent?
    2. Will learners that have completed EISA and was found “NYC” be given developmental feedback on the sections that was not acceptable?
    3. Do learners have to pay for EISA, and how much will this cost?
    4. What is the fees involved in sitting for the 2nd or 3rd time (is there substantial discounts)?
    5. How many times may a learner attempt the EISA?
    6. How much does the formative assessments and practicals count towards the EISA?
    7. What is the percentage number of moderation for the EISA, or is there no moderation conducted on the EISA?