QCTO joint communique 1 of 2016 – Please attend to this ASAP


Front Page Looking For… Training Service Providers QCTO joint communique 1 of 2016 – Please attend to this ASAP

This topic contains 1 reply, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  sylvia hammond 2 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #24746

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Thanks to Lynel Farrel for bringing this extremely important document to the bright light.

    Joint Communique 1 of 2012 has (up to now!) been the excuse for not registering with the Department of Higher Education and Training.

    I specifically mention up to now as Joint Communique 1 of 2016 has quietly been published in August 2016.  This replaces the Joint Communique 1 of 2012.  You can download the document but the main issue is that ALL private providers MUST now be registered with the DHET.  The documents are available on http://www.dhet.gov.za and the deadline is 30 June 2017.  I tried to download the document but did not succeed.  It is Government Gazette 30733 or 5 February 2006.  At present it is PDF and I have not yet been able to obtain a word version.

    Most of the document is straight forward and at least section 29 and 30 from the old document (details of the applicant’s auditor and the registration number of the DHET checked and if the person was not registered the application was turned down).  Had many disagreements on this issue and even took the new Companies Act but to no avail – rules is rules and till the document is amended the rule shall apply.

    The other contentious issue that is still there is Annexure 3 – Financial Surety.

    Please bring this to the attention of all private providers.

    Bernard Botha

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  • #24841

    sylvia hammond
    Keymaster

    Hi Bernard,

    Thank you too for bringing this document to our attention.

    It helps me understand the document that I have been working through – which is the Draft National Policy on the Misrepresentation of Qualifications.  I have been wondering why it mentions registration with DHET for all providers, when I recalled the previous Joint Communique document.  So that is now clear to me. I’m putting together some comment to submit, so I can now leave that comment out.

    I will now go and locate the 2016 version of the Communique.

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  • #24840

    Thanks a mil.

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  • #24839

    sylvia hammond
    Keymaster

    Now totally confused Joint Communique 1 of 2016 that I have located talks to Recognition of NCV 4 by HEIs? 

    Bernard is that the correct reference?

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  • #24838

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Sylvia,

    Now I am confused!  As I read paragraph 3.2(b) says ‘for OQSF qualifications at NQF levels 1 to 6 with the Directorate Private Colleges (the guide and forms for registration are available at http://www.dhet.gov.za/Organisation/Technical Vocational Education and Training).

    Not sure where you see the NC(V) 4 and HEI.

    If providers have trouble with this they are welcome to contact me and I will assist in return for a contribution to my maintenance fund.

    Bernard

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  • #24837

    ADENEGAN , MICHAEL
    Participant

    Thanks for the content…..looking forwards to more useful contributions from members.

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  • #24836

    sylvia hammond
    Keymaster

    Bernard,

    I realise what the confusion is – this is the link to Lynel’s discussion on the QCTO 

    http://www.skills-universe.com/group/concerned-providers-interest-group-/forum/topics/qcto-communication-and-information-2017?xg_source=activity

    From there I downloaded the Joint Communique 1, which says August 2016 on the cover page but actually was only signed in October and November 2016.

    The other Communique document I was referring to I realise is issued by Umalusi – very confusing with the same numbering Joint Communique 1 of 2016!!!!

    So my apologies for referring to the wrong document – but very informative that there are 2 documents with DHET logos with the same numbering – might be something for the department to consider clarifying in their referencing.

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  • #24835

    Ian Webster
    Participant

    Thanks Bernard,

    I couldn’t find it on the DHET website!

    So, let me ask you, what is meant by ‘all providers’? Providers of what?

    Thanks,

    Ian

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  • #24834

    Gavin Tonks
    Participant

    Hi I tried to find the document and could not if you can email it to me I can convert pdf to word

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  • #24833

    Gill Connellan
    Participant

    Thank you for the update. Much appreciated

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  • #24832

    Hannes Nel
    Participant

    We sent an enquiry about this to the QCTO some two weeks ago. No reply yet.

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  • #24831

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Ian,

    Sorry for delay in answering – serious operator malfunction this side.

    As I read it, it means each and every organisation that offers private education must now be registered with DHET but would appreciate comment by people who have more knowledge

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  • #24830

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Gavin,

    No problem files attached but please let me have Word versions as well.  I had a Word version of the previous document which I will attach.

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  • #24829

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Sylvia,

    Just to put matters in perspective.  Lynel posted the original and now I am basking in her reflected glory!

    All glory due to her and it is quite clear that she deserves at least a Bells

    Bernard

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  • #24828

    Richard Leeming
    Participant

    Bernard

    Thank you (and Lynel) so much for once again bringing such important information to us. Do you perhaps have the re-registration application, I cant seem to find this?

    Questions do need to be asked as to why providers did not receive these vitally important “Joint Communique'”. Or am I the only one who did not receive this?

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  • #24827

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Richard,

    The first time I became aware of this document was when Lynel Posted it among a series of documents she got from QCTO.  As to why it was not released; I cannot say but a similar situation occurred with JC 1 of 2012.

    I attach the registration form – however it is a PDF.  I had a Word copy of the old government gazette (792) but that is no longer applicable.

    Gavin Tonks says he can convert PDF to Word – I sent him the documents and now wait in animated suspension.

    The one issue that remains with the new  form is the surety – in the old days these were issued by an insurance company (at quite a hefty rate) and one had to renew annually.  Apparently there is another form of insurance that one can use but I have no information on this. 

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  • #24826

    Richard Leeming
    Participant

    Bernard

    I did see this form thanks, but we remained registered (had a bad feeling this would happen some time ago) but we need to now re-register as per 3.3.b. I cant seem to find this on DHET website and was hoping someone has this.

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  • #24825

    Ian Webster
    Participant

    Thanks very much.

    My response also delayed by lost connections!!!!

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  • #24824

    Ian Webster
    Participant

    Thanks for the documents.

    I see that it is qualified: It refers to private education and training providers that offer qualifications on the Occupational Qualifications Sub-Framework.

    That helps, thank you.

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  • #24823

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Ian,

    Thanks.

    I now realise that there is another world outside as well.  Having been involved with mostly technical training I did not think that there could be other types of training.

    Bernard

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  • #24822

    Ian Webster
    Participant

    Yup.

    Our worlds intersect here and there, but I don’t experience your traumas or the ever-changing hoops you guys have to jump through!

    Good luck.

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  • #24821

    Please help us with the link to download the link as most of us can’t be able to find this link.
    And further thanks for bringing this to our attention very much appreciated.

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  • #24820

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Attached

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  • #24819

    Hannes Nel
    Participant

    I did my homework on this one and am under the impression that it is rather old. The communique dates from 2012 and Mentornet has registered back then already. I thought everybody did! I am aware that the QCTO is working on paving the way for private providers offering occupational qualifications to register as such, but this has not been finalised yet.

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  • #24818

    Des Squire
    Participant

    Looks like 2017 might be a confusing year Hannes.

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  • #24817

    Hannes Nel
    Participant

    So it is. We will now ask for a meeting with the “right” people at the QCTO to discuss this and some other important issues. If successful, we will offer to sponsor a breakfast workshop at which QCTO prominence can explain to private learning providers what the situation and future plans are.

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  • #24816

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Hannes,

    JC 1 of 2016 replaces JC 1 of 2012 and while the front page gives a date of August 2016 the signatures on the last page range from 2016-10-31 to 2016-11-25.

    It seems as if QCTO had suddenly realised that the December holidays are upon them (and us)

    Bernard

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  • #24815

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Hannes, can we not address this with QCTO at the upcoming meeting on Friday?

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  • #24814

    Hannes Nel
    Participant

    Sounds promising. Thank you, Bernard.

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  • #24813

    Hannes Nel
    Participant

    I am sure you and the others who can attend will ask the necessary questions. Perhaps you might inform those of us who can’t here on Skills Universe?

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  • #24812

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    That is the anticipated process, I think there will be a lot of people who cannot attend the meeting who will appreciate the feedback.

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  • #24811

    Hannes Nel
    Participant

    Absolutely. Thank you in advance.

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  • #24810

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Thanks Bernard, will share that Bells with you!

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  • #24809

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Richard, I received these documents from the QCTO.  There was an instruction to forward these documents to DHET, Setas, Professional Bodies and Accredited Skills Development Providers.  These documents should be easily obtainable this week from Setas as per the instruction from QCTO last week (20th January 2017)

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  • #24808

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Nigel, I think this needs to be addressed this friday.  We might not get the response from the QCTO on our concerns submitted before then.  We will need to address as many concerns and issues as possible.  I doubt that 4 hours will be enough, I am willing to stay on longer to get as much information as possible, so that we can share this with everybody.

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  • #24807

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Agreed, already noted for Friday as result of the other reply received earlier.

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  • #24806

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Thanks Nigel!

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  • #24805

    Eduard Rabie
    Participant

    Good day,

    This might sound stupid…

    Who need to register? We are a merSTA accredited provider. That offers mostly unit standards based in the H&S field…

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  • #24804

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Eduard, I think this will be taken up on friday when the Gauteng QCTO Information Session happens.  There are many questions, and this will be the time get some clarity and explanations.  We all need some answers, and quickly!

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  • #24803

    Kate Sani
    Participant

    Members, the QCTO will be sending out within the next 2 weeks or so formal guidance in regards to Communique 1 of 2016.  No need to stress yet.

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  • #24802

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Kate,

    Thanks.  I think we should clarify the unit of time used. 

    The original Government Gazette is dated August 2016.  The Director-General of the DHET signed his copy on 2016-10-31 (presumably in Pretoria).  The document then spent the next four weeks (till 2016-11-25) in limbo before the other signatories (also in Pretoria) signed it.

    It once again disappeared into a large communication black hole and only emerged by accident when Lynel got an email from QCTO.  I am sure somebody at least one of the five signatory organisations must have noticed the activity on Skills Universe but to date none of them have reacted.

    Today is 2017-01-24 – so why the exceedingly long delay?  The whole country came to a standstill on 13 December 2016 (about 3 weeks past the date the documents were signed) and then re-opened on 9 January 2017 – this is another 3 weeks and now we have to wait two more weeks or so!  Just curious as to how these two weeks or so will be defined, ten working days, fourteen days or some other unit unique to South Africa?

    The complete process must be completed by 30 June 2017.  Will this date be extended to make provision for all the missing weeks?  As I understand paragraph 3.3 (a) ALL providers who are offering OQSF qualifications, i.e. qualifications registered on SAQA have to meet the new requirement

    Please ask the person(s) who will write the formal guidance to explain precisely what form the surety has to take, how it is determined and how it is backed up.  The form it takes at present protects the learners but nowhere is there provision for protecting private providers against learners who do not pay their fees

    I have done the previous version of this document numerous times and I can guarantee that the main stumbling block will be Annexure 3 – the issue of surety.  The DHET officials had a completely different interpretation to providers.

    One group who will most probably not get this message is the private TVET colleges who do not belong to any official organisation and very seldom bother to read Skills Universe.  They are all registered with QCTO but rely on informal lines of communication.  I am not talking about the so-called fly by nights. 

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  • #24801

    sylvia hammond
    Keymaster

    Please may I just clarify – to add to the potential confusion, – there is both:
    a draft Policy – issued by SAQA and
    there is a Bill issued by the DHET Minister.

    I’m beginning to think that someone should offer a qualification – to be registered on the NQF extra-ordinary level 10+, entitled Advanced PhD in Comprehension of ETD Policy, Legislation, & Implementation.
    Hannes – do you think MentorNet would be interested?

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  • #24800

    Heidi D Edwards
    Participant

    Hi Ian,

    Any Skills Development Provider who operates / works in the FET space.  All Providers in this space have (historically) been governed by LABOUR legislation.

    Providers in the GET and HET bands have always been governed by DoE legislation.

    Now all (Private) Skills Development Providers who are accredited with the QCTO must register with the CHE.

    One HUGE benefit is that High Commissioners in neighbouring countries would not approve study permits for foreign students wanting to study at Private Colleges because they did not recognise the QCTO as a Quality Council.

    The Registrar of Colleges (Dr Buthelezi) and other stakeholders including the QCTO has been working tirelessly over the past two years to effect a change in legislation.

    This change (in the form of the current Communiqué) has many benefits for Private Colleges / Skills Development Providers.

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  • #24799

    Could someone please upload this document to the skills universe – I cannot find it on the DHET website

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  • #24798

    Heidi D Edwards
    Participant

    Hi there,

    Attached.

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  • #24797

    Marlie Spencer
    Participant

    It also applies to providers offering part qualifications on the Occupational Qualifications Sub-framework.  This means that ALL providers accredited to offer unit standards are also required to register (refer to SAQA’s website for a definition of a part qualification: http://www.saqa.org.za/show.php?id=7391).  

    I do hope that DHET will at least temporarily increase its capacity to process the flood of applications.

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  • #24796

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Dear Members, now the confusing from a blondie.  Please could someone clarify the following for me, as I am in a catch 22, and trying to make sense of this communique 1 of 2016.

    1. Page 2 (2.2.4) states that it is not necessary to register with DHET…..

    2. Page 3 (2.2.4.1 c) states that Providers must register…..

    3. Page 4 (3.2 b) states that Providers must apply to the Directorate: Private Colleges and CHE …..

    Cleary this communique is somewhat not given the attention it needs, and clarification must be given in a clear and understandable format.  So the question here is:  If an Accredited Provider with a Seta offers full qualifications, but this is not registered as yet by the QCTO, the Provider cannot register by the QCTO as yet.  Right?

    If an Accredited Provider is registered by the QCTO, they need to register before the 30th June 2017 with DHET. Right?

    Is there a cost involved to apply for registration to the QCTO?

    Is there a cost involved to apply for registration to DHET?

    What happens if a qualification is only registered by the QCTO in September 2017 (after the dealine date of registration to DHET) – what then? 

    Is this a stipulation, and in 2 months time it will change again?  There is cost involved here, so we need to carefully go through this, understand what is the requirements are, and be 100% sure of what needs to be done: by when, by whom, timeframe, cost, feedback turnaround time, how long registration will last etc

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  • #24795

    Marlie Spencer
    Participant

    Hi Lynel,

    My interpretation in response:

    1. Page 2 (2.2.4) simply states that the Skills Development Act does not require registration. This is to provide background and context only.
    2. Page 3 (2.2.4.1 c) provides context on the basis of which registration of private providers of occupational qualifications and part qualifications can be enforced.
    …In other words, the section sets the background and then provides the basis of enforcement of registration. It is not contradictory.

    3. Page 4 (3.2 b) Private providers offering qualifications and part qualifications (thus including unit standards) at NQF 1-6 must submit their application to the Directorate for TVET Colleges. This is purely an administrative arrangement. Private providers offering this at NQF 7-8 must submit to the Directorate for Private Higher Institutions, which is again an administrative directive. The CHE is not involved at all.

    In addition:

    – A provider accredited by a SETA is deemed accredited by QCTO and should therefore register. Remember that the QCTO delegated quality assurance functions to the SETAs as well as a number of other professional bodies and industry associations for the ‘old’ qualifications. This registration not only applies to new occupational certificates, but to ALL qualifications and part qualifications (including unit standards) registered on the OQSF.

    – Providers do not register with the QCTO. Providers are accredited by the QCTO, either directly for occupational certificates or via a quality assurance partner such as a SETA.

    – I have no information related to cost of registration with DHET.

    – Capacity at DHET will remain a concern. This relates to both the number of resources available as well as the level of understanding of and experience with the occupational education and training space. Providers should submit applications sooner rather than later…

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  • #24794

    Hannes Nel
    Participant

    This new requirement is actually to our advantage. By law, you can obtain exemption for VAT if you are registered by DHET as a learning institution. The bad news is that you will then not be able to claim VAT that you paid back. However, the administrative burden of managing VAT is a pain in the backside and a waste of time. Nothing is more expensive than time. Secondly, your quotations look better because you need not add VAT, even if this is just a psychological benefit.

    Just keep in mind that you will not be automatically exempted from VAT if you register with DHET – you still need to apply for exemption, which is what we did when we registered as a Private FET (now TVET) College.

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  • #24793

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Dr Nel, thank you for this.  I have learned something new today, and very valuable for sure.  Your feedback is always so good.  Thank you!!

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  • #24792

    Hannes Nel
    Participant

    Good one Sylvia. The need for clarity is most certainly critical, but a course like this would be extremely boring, I think. Perhaps members of Skills Universe can share their views on why there is so much confusion and why there are so many laws followed by a multitude of drafts, white papers, green papers, amendments and goodness only knows what else. The need to start over and to just keep is simple is obvious.

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  • #24791

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Marlie, thank you so much for your interpretation, it is really appreciated.  I do have a question though and maybe you are able to clarify this.  You stated that if you are an accredited provider, you are deemed accredited by the QCTO.  Please could you confirm this:  Does that mean, that if you are accredited by a Seta, you are automatically accredited by the QCTO?  I am slightly confused with this, as the information I have received thus far, states that any accredited provider must also apply by themselves to the QCTO for accreditation.  If accredited providers are automatically accredited by the QCTO if they are currently accredited by a Seta, why is the list of “accredited” SDPs so short?  Did I understand this completely wrong?  I would really appreciate being corrected, this will help a lot.

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  • #24790

    Hi Marlie – hope you had a good break. Do you actually have a copy of the 2016 communique that you could email me?

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  • #24789

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Jax, send me your email address and I will forward you all the documents I received from the QCTO

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  • #24788

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Oh wow, currently there would not be one generic workshop in Comprehension of ETD Policy, Legislation and Implementation.  There will have to be a workshop per SETA – as each one is different, want different policies and procedures, templates, fonts.  This have been the problem ever since the beginning when the Setas were born – not one are the same.  Although SAQA gave very clear guidelines, the Setas took these and added more of their own rules.  There is no ONE standard/guideline/stipulation that is the same.  Difficult indeed.  Maybe by registering with DHET, their rules/regulations/stipulations will cover all Setas?

    I agree a workshop/course in the Comprehension of ETD Policy will make people fall asleep in the first 10 minutes.  This is not a course for someone that doesn’t have passion for policies/regulations ect.  Does these people exist?

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  • #24787

    sylvia hammond
    Keymaster

    Hi Hannes, thank you.

    I’m thinking I need to start a Constructive Suggestions for Improvement group. Only specific constructive suggestions that are easily and quickly implementable to make positive improvements. 

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  • #24786

    Hannes Nel
    Participant

    Yes, this is a really important and valuable advantage. Thank you, Heidi.

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  • #24785

    It’s jacqui@chartsec.co.za

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  • #24784

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Jax, I have emailed this to you

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  • #24783

    received with thanks

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  • #24782

    Jacqueline Klem
    Participant

    Here is the link for the draft policy on misrepresentation of qualifications.

    http://www.saqa.org.za/docs/pol/2017/Draft%20Policy%20on%20the%20Misrepresentation%20of%20Qualifications.pdf

    Thanks all for all your hard work

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  • #24781

    Marlie Spencer
    Participant

    Hi Lynel,

    The list of SDP’s only relate to the new curriculum-based qualifications. These can be easily identified as it contains ‘Occupational Certificate’ in the title. All other legacy or historical qualifications, which are either unit standards-based or outcomes based, are quality assured by partners of the QCTO under a delegation. These include the SETAs and various professional bodies and industry associations. The delegation will only remain in place until the qualifications are replaced by occupational certificates. I’ve read through joint communique no 1 of 2016 again, and I believe we should gain confirmation on whether providers accredited under a delegation agreement are required to register. I called the QCTO yesterday afternoon and was informed that they are busy drafting a letter to explain this. I suggest we raise this in the workshop tomorrow. My interpretation however remains such that providers accredited by SETAs or another QCTO delegated quality assurance partner will also have to register with DHET. I know that this has definitely been the intention in informal discussions to date.

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  • #24780

    Marlie Spencer
    Participant

    Hi Jacqui!

    I had a wonderful, but now long forgotten, break, thank you. Hope you had the same 🙂

    I see Lynel has assisted in providing the document.

    Hope to see you soon. M

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  • #24779

    Hannes Nel
    Participant

    I read the Draft National Policy on the Misrepresentation of Qualifications. Paragraph 2.1: Victims of Unscrupulous Providers reminded me of Don Leffler, a person who claims to be an advocate. This person is not accredited to offer OD ETD qualifications, and yet he obtains contracts from, amongst others, TVET Colleges to train their staff members in OD ETD. In 2015 he asked Mentornet to do the assessment and moderation of his exam papers and practical assignments. Seeing that the ETDP SETA asked us many years ago to assist emerging providers, we agreed. He also purchased all the training materials from us. As far as I know, he offered the training. However, he never had the exam papers assessed or moderated by us and he never paid us for the training materials. He admitted to our attorney that he offered the training and promised to pay us as soon as the TVET College pays him. The certificates that he issued, if he did, will obviously be fraudulent, seeing that he is not accredited to offer the training. He also did not have registered moderators or assessors in 2015. It is, of course, possible that he made use of the assistance of a different accredited private provider. It is also possible that he might have accredited since then. We enquired from the ETDP SETA, but they did not even reply. Our attorney could not serve him with a court order because, even though his name features on more than 20 Google addresses, a physical address for him cannot be found anywhere. It would be rather sad if all the TVET lecturers that he trained are stuck with worthless certificates. Be careful of this man.

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  • #24778

    Louis Nel
    Participant

    Hi all 

    DHET sent the following links to the  docs  and I was able to access these(PDF only). Hope this helps

    Good day, Thank you for contacting the DHET. Please take note of the attached Joint Communiqué 1 of 2016 on The Registration and Accreditation of Private Education and Training Providers offering Qualifications and Part-Qualifications on the Occupational Qualifications Sub-Framework. Application forms are obtainable on the DHET website; use the following links:

    1.http://www.dhet.gov.za/SitePages/DocForms.aspx (look under: 2008 Forms)

    2. http://www.dhet.gov.za/SitePages/UniversityEducation.aspx (look under: Private Higher Education Institutions resources)

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  • #24777

    Ok, I’m now totally p’ed off! The application form for providers exists only in the ether it seems, as it is nowhere to be found on the DHET website or at least not at the URL provided on the communique. In addition, if a provider is offering quals NQF1-6 and at 7-8 the provider must apply TWICE to two different organisations with different requirements. Furthermore some NQF7-8 providers are not offering University Programmes as the communique implies and are offering other programmes that are registered at the NQF7 and 8 levels.  Some of our providers straddle FET and HET.  I’m so done with this!

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  • #24776

    and furthermore to my previous message, what about students who are self-studying and then writing “exams” such as those for the professional body for which I work who don’t actually go to a tuition provider at all?

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  • #24775

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Jacqui,

    I found the original PDF document (it dates from 2008 – as indicated in the reply from Louis) and a friend concerted it to a Word document.  Will attach both plus the original document that was in force till the JC 1 of 2012.

    The ‘old’ version required more information than the present one.

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  • #24774

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Had a completed version – replaced with an empty

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  • #24773

    Louis Nel
    Participant

    Hi all

    I have been invited to the QCTO info session which will take place at Ekurhuleni East campus tomorrow . I am sure a number of the other members were also invited . I am going to raise this matter as I have further noticed that they require the number of students, where they will be training etc. etc. There are many providers who train on site (The client’s premises)and not at a central campus. Providers also do not have the exact number of learners and where they will train prior to an SLA being signed by a client. A client might only sign an SLA in August 2017 which means you are unable account for these numbers prior to the application closing date????? This document was clearly not designed to take this into consideration and was designed for completion by FET colleges where the students enrol at a certain time of the year and train at a specific site(The College)

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  • #24772

    thanks for this, Bernard

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  • #24771

    I agree and what about distance learners? Skills providers who are not offering whole qualifications as well which still exist for the time being. Registering with DHET will be a nightmare of inefficiency and requirements beyond what is needed. It flies in the face of the constitution, in my view. We are so over-regulated it’s beyond a joke.

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  • #24770

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Louis,

    Thanks,

    I also received an invitation and even accepted but the distance and my car’s fuel consumption makes it impossible.

    Sure there are lots of other people who would also have liked to be there but are not able to.

    Know it very late to suggest this but wouldn’t it be possible to set up a video link so that other members can follow?

    Then PLEASE ASK DHET TO EDIT AND REVISE the document and produce it as a Word document.  Some issues are not relevant but one has to complete it.  It is so much easier to complete a Word document electronically than try to fit in the spaces provided on the PDF.

    I know a camel is a horse designed by a committee but shouldn’t the people who will be required to complete this document also give an input?  This can be done in say a week and the ‘new’ user-friendly document will still be in time for the proposed release by QCTO ‘in one or two weeks’.

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  • #24769

    Louis Nel
    Participant

    Bernard I will definitely address the document. I think setting up the link is going to be a challenge though. I will give feedback on their responses to this communique

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  • #24768

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Marlie, thank you for this.  We will definately bring this up tomorrow!

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  • #24767

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Jacqueline, thank you so much for this.  Very interesting, and will be using my highlighters now!!

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  • #24766

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Louis, that is correct!  According to our calculations all 400 seats are taken for tomorrow!  It is going to be a very interesting day.  I trust that everybody that registered and booked a seat for tomorrows QCTO Information session, will be there.  I for one, will be there 100%.

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  • #24765

    I hope you have your toyi-toying gear in hand, warrior woman. There’s going to be a bun fight. 

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  • #24764

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Now, now, Jax, we have elected to go in peace for this meeting.  Let’s give them the opportunity to prove what we have become accustomed to is not what we are going to get in the future.

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  • #24763

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Oh no Jax, I cannot toy-toy.  I do however have bubblegum boots, a hard hat, my “spoon-feeding” meter and a 1/2 wooden pap-lepel – pepper spray and about 20 or so taser guns.  Other than that, I have the Army on standby, medics and worse case scenaria, my car will be in first gear idling, ready for lift off. 

    Okay, now that I have told you that I am prepared for tomorrow, I do believe that these sessions will be very valuable.  We need to ensure that we work with the QCTO, hear them out with all the hassels they are having, ask questions that will benefit everybody.  We will give a full report on what was raised, what was answered etc.

    Oh, the taser guns, peper spray etc is for the aggresive individuals……………

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  • #24762

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hear, hear Nigel.

    Will quickly cancel the Army, Medics, taser guns, peper spray etc. 

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  • #24761

    Marie Smith
    Participant

    Is anybody closer to clarity after the QCTO information session, please? Would appreciate brief, accurate summary of the correct interpretation.

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  • #24760

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Marie,

    Lynel posted a new thread based on the feedback from the QCTO meeting.  I hope my IT skills is sufficient to copy the link.

    Bernard

     

    http://www.skills-universe.com/group/concerned-providers-interest-group-/forum/topics/qcto-information-session-1-gauteng-outcome-27-january-2017?commentId=2671568%3AComment%3A384764&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum

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  • #24759

    Marie Smith
    Participant

    Thanks, Bernard.

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  • #24758

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Thank you Bernard!

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  • #24757

    Marie Smith
    Participant

    So should private providers (who provide only skills programmes not full qualifications and who do such training at the premises of their clients) complete the application form FPX-01 for registration as a private further education and training college, or is there a separate form?

    For providers who are in the process of applying for accreditation with a SETA, should the two applications be simultaneously or should application to DHET take place after SETA accreditation?

    Thanks

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  • #24756

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Marie,  Unfortunately there is not other form as yet.  We have questioned this document, as it doesn’t speak to Accredited Providers with SETA – so we have to complete this document as best we can.

    For providers currently in the process in obtaining their accreditation, well, I would recommend that whilst busy with the application for accreditation, you can just as well prepare for the application for registration with DHET.  Most of your documents that you submit for Accreditation, will be utilised with the DHET application. 

    However, if the provider have not received their accreditation status as yet, they must not apply until such time that they have their accreditation number – you will see on the application form, that this is requested.

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  • #24755

    Bernard Botha
    Participant

    Marie,

    Lynel is the person driving this initiative – one of the many outstanding matters is part qualifications or skills courses based on selected unit standards.  The majority of Skills Development Partners offer only skills courses as that is what the employers want.

    Somewhere in all the documentation there is a statement or reply from QCTO to the effect that once all the legacy qualifications have been converted to Occupational Certificates only OC’s will be offered.  Must look that up but this is matter of concern.

    In the past an apprentice who could not complete his National Certificate:  Electrical and sit for the trade test could do a number of skills courses to become an electrician’s mate and have papers to prove it.  He or she would then entitled to higher pay than an unskilled operator.

    Not sure if QCTO took this into consideration.  Training providers also offer short courses lasting from one to five days on specific subjects, such as Word 2016, Stress Management and similar.  Lynel could you add this to the list of questions for QCTO’s Cape Town session please.

    I have to beg to differ from my learned friend – somewhere on one of the numerous documents relating to this issues the DHET says one can run the two processes in parallel.

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  • #24754

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Bernard, the short courses or skills programmes are critical.  How I understand this, this will not longer be done – but if we address this, with the priority it deserves, then we could get the authorities to look into this matter.  Again, if we do not raise concerns, then it will just fade away, as if it never existed.

    I will add this to the list of questions for the QCTO session in Cape Town (scheduled for next week)!!!

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  • #24753

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Hi Bernard,

    It was in the list on the QCTO reply to all the queries and says:

    11. Must Providers be registered with DHET first before applying for accreditation/registration as a SDP by the QCTO?
    Response: They can simultaneously apply for both.

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  • #24752

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Thanks Nigel, this is my understanding too.  The only “catch” that providers must look out for, is the fact that DHET application for registration has a deadline – this June!!!!  The QCTO application for accreditation does not have a deadline at all.

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  • #24751

    Marie Smith
    Participant

    I would still like to see what percentage of, for example, Cashiers (checkout officers) need a full qualification worth 120 credits to effectively and efficiently perform three main tasks: recording transactions, interacting with customers and packing purchases (in addition to basic mathematical literacy to balance shifts and calculate change and communication skills). I am not against allowing people the opportunity of full qualifications, but  I am wondering how many employers in the SMME retail sector can afford to train their staff on full qualifications. The employer experience is that trained staff quickly get better offers, so many of the employers are reluctant to invest in full qualifications. Even if a programme is sponsored by the SETA, it still involves investment in working hours off for training. The real-life experience even in super-regional shopping centres is that most staff members are not prepared to attend training during off-duty periods.

    I have not worked with uploading learners for the new Occupational Certificate (QCTO) qualifications, but from previous comments from respected members on this forum, I understood that there are some challenges with uploading results if a learner does not complete the full qualification – apparently a qualification has to be completed in full. Yet, the OC qualifications are designed into ‘modules’. The Articulation Policy for the Post-School Education and Training System that was published in January and that was posted on the forum by a member, states in Section 48 that “To enhance articulation opportunities the curriculum should be modularised as far as possible. This arrangement will enhance the opportunities for

    The Articulation Policy for the Post-School Education and Training System that was published in January and that was posted on the Skills Universe forum by a member, states in Section 48 that “To enhance articulation opportunities the curriculum should be modularised as far as possible. This arrangement will enhance the opportunities for people who work and learn to exit a module/short course with credits (my emphasis). This arrangement will also simplify the time table process in TVET Colleges to accommodate two or even three teaching and learning sessions per day.” My request for learned and respected members of the forum to help interpret this did not elicit one response.

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  • #24750

    Marlie Spencer
    Participant

    Hi Marie,

    I believe you would be interested in the following:

    a) There is no minimum credit requirement for an occupational certificate.  The credits are determined by the occupation in question.  As far as I recall the new occupational certificate for cashier is approximately 40 credits in total (if my memory of my last conversation with W&R SETA serves me correctly).

    b) The QCTO does not equate 120 credits to a year; they apply 180 credits to a year (calculated according to a 40 hour week).

    c) The intention is for modules to be transferable to other sub-frameworks / qualifications, but this would mostly relate to the knowledge modules for transfer to another sub-framework.  Similar to a learner receiving a transcript from a university which reflects modules achieved to date, a learner will receive a statement of results for the modules completed.  The statement of results will however not be issued by the QCTO, but by the accredited SDP.  Since provision of modules by accredited SDPs will largely not be quality assured, it does pose a risk to the credibility of the system.  A lack of credibility could of course hamper articulation and SETA funding possibilities.  

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  • #24749

    Marie Smith
    Participant

    Thank you, Marli. I must admit that there are numerous grey areas for me in terms of OCs and QCTO. I was giving the 120 credits as an example based on the old qualification for W&R Operations NQF2. I note that a qualification for checkout operator is marked ‘Council submission’ on the QCTO qualifications database but cannot find an explanation of what that means in the stages of the qualification development. Others have been on the list ‘Recommended to SAQA for registration’ for as long as I can remember.

    While I can see the qualification for checkout operators in the Council submission stage, I don’t know where to look for more information on it. 

    Is there a reputable organisation that is prepared to arrange a workshop / conference to provide sufficient information/clarity on the framework and its implementation?

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  • #24748

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Members, please be advised that the QCTO has extended the invitation to register for the Cape Town Information Session.  There is 52 seats left, the deadline date was extended until the 8th February (2 days away).  Please register to avoid disappointment.  Go and meet the QCTO staff, hear their presentation and be involved in the open form whereby you may address the QCTO team directly!

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  • #24747

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Calling on all Cape Town Members, Providers, ETD Practitioners, Assessors, Moderators, SDFs, Verifiers, Training Managers, ETD Consultants – please be advised that the QCTO has extended the invitation to register for the Cape Town Information Session.  There is  39 seats left, the deadline date was extended until the 8th February (1 day away).  Please register to avoid disappointment.  Go and meet the QCTO staff, hear their presentation and be involved in the open form whereby you may address the QCTO team directly!

    NOTE:  This QCTO Information Session scheduled for the 16th February (next week Thursday) is free, no cost to you.  Let’s get the remaining 39 seats registered!!!!!!! 

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