Fair pay for Facilitators, Assessors and Moderators


Front Page Looking For… General – topics not covered by categories Fair pay for Facilitators, Assessors and Moderators

This topic contains 34 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by  maesela johanna 2 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #7431

    WHAT is considered a FAIR daily rate for Facilitators who freelance and are contracted by accredited Training Providers.

     

    YES, rates of pay are determined by supply and demand for Facilitators, Assessors and Moderators who are not covered by Wage Agreements like our Teachers, Nurses and other organised sectors.

     

    Training Facilitators are the new “estate agents” in that there is a growing number of individuals who, for various reasons, promote their skills as “sole proprietorships”. These entrepreneurs compete with each other and with permanently employed Facilitators / Trainers for a share of the Training market.

     

    BUT what is an acceptable, competitive and market related daily rate for a Facilitator????? And for an Assessor or Moderator ?????

     

    We have heard Facilitator rates of pay bandied about of R 800.00 per day to R 5 000.00 per day – what is your experience?

     

    Are Facilitators paid seperately – and more – for designing Course Material ? If so what are the market related rates for Course design.

     

    LET US ALL ASSIST EACH OTHER by understanding acceptable and market-related rates of pay for Facilitators, Assessors and Moderators ……

     

    Please share your views …….

     

    Thanks

    Don

    http://www.thsbs.com and http://www.eazi.study.com and http://welcomewozani.com

     

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  • #7464

    Hi Don

    This is a very interesting topic because of the wide range of pricing out there!! I have facilitated SA Host workshops for theta and other training and we get paid R5000 a day. On some occassions this has meant a trip to Bloemfontein. Those in Bloemfontein got paid the same R5000 but obviously were in the right place for the debrief!!!

    I do quite a lot of work for TEP which is Tourism Enterprise project. There the payment is anything from R3200 for the day for a basic cusstomer care course to R4500 for the day when dealing business skills, marketing and computer internet training. They also pay R2.80 per km for petrol and if you travel hotel and all meals, lunch being covered by what we eat on the workshop. I gave a rate of R2500 the other day and did not get the job because I was too expensive!! I have been in the business a long time. Surely my expertise counts. In most jobs you get a yearly rise. We are always cut down to the cost of a new trainer on the block!!

    I would like to use this forum to also discuss the tendering norm if possible. I was asked to do the work as an accreditered provider for someone who got the original tender. A tender we did not get and I have since heard we were the lower price!! I am appalled at how much you end up getting paid for doing everything. The provider who is not accreditered gets the tender and pays you minimum for your accreditation and expertise. Do we not have industry norms. As part of this skills universe should we not all try to be part of a best practise agreement where we are fair!!

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  • #7463

    sylvia hammond
    Keymaster

    Hi Amanda,
    I have had similar experiences with payment. I like your idea of skills-universe members developing some good practice guidelines and also a matrix of facilitator rates – possibly based on qualifications & experience? I would suggest that an experienced facilitator, who can provide practical examples to illustrate the material should be at a higher rate.

    Lisa Amanda Bradshaw said:

    Hi Don

    This is a very interesting topic because of the wide range of pricing out there!! I have facilitated SA Host workshops for theta and other training and we get paid R5000 a day. On some occassions this has meant a trip to Bloemfontein. Those in Bloemfontein got paid the same R5000 but obviously were in the right place for the debrief!!!

    I do quite a lot of work for TEP which is Tourism Enterprise project. There the payment is anything from R3200 for the day for a basic cusstomer care course to R4500 for the day when dealing business skills, marketing and computer internet training. They also pay R2.80 per km for petrol and if you travel hotel and all meals, lunch being covered by what we eat on the workshop. I gave a rate of R2500 the other day and did not get the job because I was too expensive!! I have been in the business a long time. Surely my expertise counts. In most jobs you get a yearly rise. We are always cut down to the cost of a new trainer on the block!!

    I would like to use this forum to also discuss the tendering norm if possible. I was asked to do the work as an accreditered provider for someone who got the original tender. A tender we did not get and I have since heard we were the lower price!! I am appalled at how much you end up getting paid for doing everything. The provider who is not accreditered gets the tender and pays you minimum for your accreditation and expertise. Do we not have industry norms. As part of this skills universe should we not all try to be part of a best practise agreement where we are fair!!

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  • #7462

    HI

    Would this not constitute anti competitive behaviour?

    Hennie

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  • #7461

    Skills Universe
    Keymaster

    Hi Don
    Thanks for the toipic , I see these are more based on the private and business sectors .
    What will the rates be then in the mining sector?

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  • #7460

    There are various factors regardsing fees payable, and one would need to look perhaps at the following when determining costs:
    Is the fee just for facilitation;
    Is the programme designed by the facilitator, or is the facilitator presenting someone elses material;
    Is the facilitator presenting on a scare skill, i.e., not many other people have the specific skill or qualification;
    Is the fee inclusive or exclsuive of travel, accommodation; venue hire, files/handouts, etc.
    Years of experience and reputation also play a large role

    I have also found that the industry in which you practice, for example, hospitality, security, banking, etc. does have an impact in terms of what is affordable for that particular industry/client, and that the facilitator could adjsut thier cost accordingly.

    As with Doctors, there are set rates, but we are always willing to pay for specialist skills – just as with facilitators.

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  • #7459

    Hi all,
    I know of providers who quote enormous amounts per assessment [as part of the total “course cost”] and then pay the assessor R50, 00 per assessment [not even paying for second or third attempts assessments]… Providers quoting R5 – 15 000, 00 per U/S for developments and them pay the actual developer R 200, 00 per Course [integrating two or three U/S]. My personal opinion at this point is…..greed…

    How many of you are aware of the fact that the South African Labour Force is considered as one of the most [if not the most] expensive in the world…?
    It’s nice to be paid R5000, 00 per day [excluding expenses], but how much of that money actually gets to the person performing the actual work?

    I followed a number of discussions on Skills Universe relating to pricing up to now….. And have to be honest – I am shocked – assessors being paid up to R1000, 00 per assessment..? What is the cost of the course then? That is if/that the provider can afford this price? I actually went as far as posting an “article” on Skills Universe inviting providers to contact me directly for “better prices” relating to assessments; moderations and developments – till today I have not received ANY response… Makes you wonder…

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  • #7458

    Interesting topic. I have a training company but I also facilitate occasionally.

    Facilitator rates tend to vary according to the programme, the training provider and duration. My average price has been R1, 500 per day. I must say I condier that to be on the low side of what I consider a fair price. One company wanted to pay me R1, 000 on the basis of the programme being offered over 5 days saying they would have paid R1, 500 per day if it was only one day.

    I normally pay facilitators an average of R2, 000 per day. I would not pay more than R3500 per day.

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  • #7457

    Sandra De Leo
    Participant

    There are rates for facilitation, then there are rates for training plus assessment and moderation. For NQ unit standard based training I calculate a rate based on the number of credits. The credits giving a good indication of the time required for material design,training and assessment.
    What I find difficult is deciding on how to set the rates for re-assessment; whether to add this posibility into the initial rate, or to quote separately for re-assessment. To be fair to the client not all learners need re-assessment. And on the other hand, re-assessment takes time and resources and is not that easy to plan.

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  • #7456

    Companies charge between R800 to R1500 a day for a workshop. The trainer then gets paid R2000. SOmetimes you have 40 people on a workshop. R32000 for the organiser and R2000 for the trainer!! I know venue hire and food come into this but are’nt we underselling ourselves as trainers!! If you use a useless trainer these people will not be back for more workshops!!

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  • #7455

    Hi Theresa,

    I think your contribution to this topic is most helpful. I would like to add to this:

    Is the person facilitating a one-day course, short course, skills programme or learnership – and over what time frame period?

    Are the facilitator also a registered assessor at the relevant SETA?
    Does the facilitation include assessment of PoE’s – amount of US’s / Credits on what level and over what time frame period?

    Theresa Cook said:

    There are various factors regardsing fees payable, and one would need to look perhaps at the following when determining costs:
    Is the fee just for facilitation; Is the programme designed by the facilitator, or is the facilitator presenting someone elses material; Is the facilitator presenting on a scare skill, i.e., not many other people have the specific skill or qualification;
    Is the fee inclusive or exclsuive of travel, accommodation; venue hire, files/handouts, etc.
    Years of experience and reputation also play a large role

    I have also found that the industry in which you practice, for example, hospitality, security, banking, etc. does have an impact in terms of what is affordable for that particular industry/client, and that the facilitator could adjsut thier cost accordingly.

    As with Doctors, there are set rates, but we are always willing to pay for specialist skills – just as with facilitators.

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  • #7454

    Rolf Kühnast
    Participant

    Hi Don, How long is a piece of string?
    What constitutes a fair rate will be determined by your client; charge too much, and you will not get the assignment. Charge too little, and you are short-charging yourself.

    As a freelancer, you are probably far more competent than the fulltime staff, so you should be able to charge more. But anyway, any registered training provider will always use their fulltime staff, rather than a freelancer.

    I charge anything from R250 to R400 per hour for facilitation to corporate clients. Assessment is separate, and is adjusted according to the quality of submitted portfolios, but is not less than the hourly facilitation rate.

    As a facilitator associated to a registered training provider I can get R200 per hour. This includes assessment, and the setting of FSA’s.

    Moderation and assessment are charged separately, as is course development.
    I recently did RPL for a client and charged R450 per hour, which after the event, I felt was too low!

    I hope that this answers some of your questions.

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  • #7453

    Rolf Kühnast
    Participant

    Hi Hennie,
    This highlights a point that I made elsewhere in this forum,

    This whole process of OBE as it is practised here, is horrendously expensive, due to the massive bureaucracy that has been created.

    South Africa also does not have the resources to put such a system into place economically.!

    Hennie van der Merwe said:

    Hi all,
    I know of providers who quote enormous amounts per assessment [as part of the total “course cost”] and then pay the assessor R50, 00 per assessment [not even paying for second or third attempts assessments]… Providers quoting R5 – 15 000, 00 per U/S for developments and them pay the actual developer R 200, 00 per Course [integrating two or three U/S]. My personal opinion at this point is…..greed…

    How many of you are aware of the fact that the South African Labour Force is considered as one of the most [if not the most] expensive in the world…?
    It’s nice to be paid R5000, 00 per day [excluding expenses], but how much of that money actually gets to the person performing the actual work?

    I followed a number of discussions on Skills Universe relating to pricing up to now….. And have to be honest – I am shocked – assessors being paid up to R1000, 00 per assessment..? What is the cost of the course then? That is if/that the provider can afford this price? I actually went as far as posting an “article” on Skills Universe inviting providers to contact me directly for “better prices” relating to assessments; moderations and developments – till today I have not received ANY response… Makes you wonder…

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  • #7452

    WHILST I HEAR YOU, LISA, ONE MUST ALSO ACCOUNT FOR THE FOLLOWING WHICH HAVE COST IMPLICATIONS:
    – NAME AND REPUTATION OF pROVIDER BUILT UP OVER MANY YEARS
    – ACCREDITATION OF PROVIDER – ONGOING COSTS
    – PR AND MARKETING OF PROVIDER INCL. COST OF WEBSITES, EMAILS, ADS, ETC
    – COURSE MATERIAL DESIGN
    – LIABILITY / POTENTIAL RISK FOR THE PROVIDER
    – PRINTING COSTS
    – ADMIN COSTS
    – PROJECT MANAGEMENT
    – NEED TO RE-INVEST IN PROVIDER BUSINESS TO KEEP UPTO DATE; MARKET; MEETINGS; ETC. ETC.

    ALL THESE SHOULD, IN AN IDEAL WORLD, BE RECOVERABLE.

    Howevr, notwithstanding the above, I totally agree with your comments about poor Facilitators being paid large Fees regardless of their credentials; commitment; loyalty to the Provider or their interest in “making a difference”.

    Unfortunately, our Tendering processes and requirements for BEE or accreditation or qualified skilled staff; etc. have resulted in the trend of Lead and sub-contracted Secondary Providers and Facilitators. This results in an unbalanced and unfair share of revenues versus imput and responsibility.

    I like to think that sustainability will come from a Value System of honesty, integrity and ethics. BUT, it is not an ideal world !!!!

    Lisa Amanda Bradshaw said:

    Companies charge between R800 to R1500 a day for a workshop. The trainer then gets paid R2000. SOmetimes you have 40 people on a workshop. R32000 for the organiser and R2000 for the trainer!! I know venue hire and food come into this but are’nt we underselling ourselves as trainers!! If you use a useless trainer these people will not be back for more workshops!!
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  • #7451

    Sandra De Leo
    Participant

    Hi Hennie,
    If you look at time as one of the main factors when calculating rates as Rolf has indicated above, the cost of assessment will vary depending on the time required to complete assessments. Practical assessment take more time than desk top assessments. Also if you look at the technical expertise required of the assessor when performing practical assessments a rate of R1000 per assessment seems more viable.
    I would be interested to know more about the rate of R50 per assessment, at a reasonable rate of R200 per hour, that assessment should take no longer than 15 minutes?
    Regards
    Sandy

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  • #7450

    Hi Don

    I have been in the industry for many years, and we have always had the debate on fees. Some trainers feel the training companies are making all the money, and some trainers feel they need to earn more as the do all the research and have the intellectual property on the course.

    I have respect for the training companies, as they offer me, the freelance trainer the oppertunity to do what I do best, train people, without the overheads of running a company. However, there is fewer work for the freelance trainer than 5 years ago.

    You have to add to that, that we do not work 5 days per week, and as I develop all my materials, development fees are not charged to the training company.

    Perhaps the best way to determine a fee is based on experience as well as the dedication the trainer has. Ethics, passion, dedication and knowledge.

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  • #7449

    I like your response and attitude to this issue. I would love to receive a copy of your CV – perhaps we can work together for mutual benefit.
    Regards, Don
    http://www.thsbs.com and http://welcomewozani.com

    Tanya Welling-Rossouw said:

    Hi Don

    I have been in the industry for many years, and we have always had the debate on fees. Some trainers feel the training companies are making all the money, and some trainers feel they need to earn more as the do all the research and have the intellectual property on the course.

    I have respect for the training companies, as they offer me, the freelance trainer the oppertunity to do what I do best, train people, without the overheads of running a company. However, there is fewer work for the freelance trainer than 5 years ago.

    You have to add to that, that we do not work 5 days per week, and as I develop all my materials, development fees are not charged to the training company.

    Perhaps the best way to determine a fee is based on experience as well as the dedication the trainer has. Ethics, passion, dedication and knowledge.

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  • #7448

    Des Squire
    Participant

    A two day training course related to the disciplinary process and chairing a hearing were recently quoted at a range from R120000 to R30000 for the same content. How can this be justified? Personally I cost my services out at a reate per day for a group not exceeding say 15. Usually< depending on the course, but in most instanceds the cost is lesss than R1000 per person.
    I was recently quoted in a range of R2500 to R20000 for facilitation fees for one day to conduct assessor training for me.

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  • #7447

    A perspective that might add value to this discussion…..

    For the facilitation of a self leadership program, I get paid R4 000 per day, excluding travel, accommodation and miscellaneous costs. For the facilitation of a leadership program at a higher level, the fee is R5 550 excluding travel and accommodation.
    On the flip side of that, we pay facilitators (topic leaders as we call them) R1 000 for a 3 hour workshop (6h30pm – 21h30pm) We also provide dinner.
    This is an interesting topic which deserves to be fully explored. Thanks for an interesting post!

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  • #7446

    I am a qualified ODETD Practioner (NQF 6 – completed cum laude in 2004), that has facilitated ODETD Diploma level subjects for a higher learning institution. In 2004, I was paid R3 500 per day to facilitate, R250 per portfolio of evidence (to assess), R10 000 to provide learner support to students for the study year and R150 to moderate 25% of modules assessed by other Practitioners facilitating NQF 4 subjects. I was also expected to carry out maintenance of the modules I was responsible for – there was an extra fee for this.

    Early this year, I was contracted by a training company that was prepared to pay R1 200 per day for training MS Word 2003 and MS Excel 2003. I was further paid R900 per day to facilitate a number of subjects (N3, N4 and N6) in one class at the premises of the training consultancy’s client. I was also required to set test papers, draft exercises/assignments as formal assessments, assess all, including past examination papers that were given to learners to assist them in preparing for semester examinations. When requesting an IRP 5 for the past tax year, I was told that they were not required to submit an IRP 5 so it was my problem. I do believe that I was grossly underpaid and, at the end of the day, being responsible for the tax component meant that I was earning even less. I did not sign a contract as was informed that the client had not signed an agreement with them – this did not make any sense to me at the time. If I was offered a fee, surely there had to be a contract in place at it would have been highly risky for the Consultancy to carry out “contracted” tasks without any structure or scope confirming roles and responsibilities of all parties!

    I have had more than 10 years of experience in the training environment and am passionate about playing a role in empowering individuals. Having the ability to play an extra role as a Business and Life Skills Coach, has been tremendously beneficial to me and my ‘students’ (across the board). All facilitators perform this duty in some form or other. It is a highly responsible role to play as it affects the ability for students to achieve, determine their development areas, successes and personal challenges that deter them from performing as well as they should be.

    There are many competent Occupation-Directed ETD Practitioners like myself out there that are competing in order to survive from a financial perspective. My personal opinion is that there are many consulting companies and training providers that take advantage of this and negotiate lower rates knowing that practitioners would rather have a contract that none at all. The Practitioner needs to cover transport costs and spend many hours after training preparing for the next day, assessing assignments, tests, etc. therefore, it is no longer worthwhile for him/her.

    I agree that GREED plays a big part within the process:
    – the Consultancy who wants to split huge profits between members and pay the Practitioner the bear minimum; and
    – the Practitioner that convinces the consultancy that he/she is “highly sought after”, exceptionally competent and worth the money that is to be spent on them. When it comes down to the results, however, the Consultancy discovers that the “reputable” Practitioner has oversold himself/herself and has placed the Consultancy’s reputation at risk.

    Being an ODETDP is not for sissies. You cannot give less than 100% of yourself. Would it not, therefore, make sense to put a payment structure in place so that Practioners, dependent on their qualifications, experience and levels of expertise can be fairly compensated for the tasks that they are so passionately committed to perform?

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  • #7445

    Great sentiments and your recommendation mirrors that of Lisa Bradshaw and others. Perhaps this issue – a guideline framework of ETD Practitioner Fees – will be useful to all stakeholders.

    Glenda Chantelle Osborn said:

    I am a qualified ODETD Practioner (NQF 6 – completed cum laude in 2004), that has facilitated ODETD Diploma level subjects for a higher learning institution. In 2004, I was paid R3 500 per day to facilitate, R250 per portfolio of evidence (to assess), R10 000 to provide learner support to students for the study year and R150 to moderate 25% of modules assessed by other Practitioners facilitating NQF 4 subjects. I was also expected to carry out maintenance of the modules I was responsible for – there was an extra fee for this.

    Early this year, I was contracted by a training company that was prepared to pay R1 200 per day for training MS Word 2003 and MS Excel 2003. I was further paid R900 per day to facilitate a number of subjects (N3, N4 and N6) in one class at the premises of the training consultancy’s client. I was also required to set test papers, draft exercises/assignments as formal assessments, assess all, including past examination papers that were given to learners to assist them in preparing for semester examinations. When requesting an IRP 5 for the past tax year, I was told that they were not required to submit an IRP 5 so it was my problem. I do believe that I was grossly underpaid and, at the end of the day, being responsible for the tax component meant that I was earning even less. I did not sign a contract as was informed that the client had not signed an agreement with them – this did not make any sense to me at the time. If I was offered a fee, surely there had to be a contract in place at it would have been highly risky for the Consultancy to carry out “contracted” tasks without any structure or scope confirming roles and responsibilities of all parties!

    I have had more than 10 years of experience in the training environment and am passionate about playing a role in empowering individuals. Having the ability to play an extra role as a Business and Life Skills Coach, has been tremendously beneficial to me and my ‘students’ (across the board). All facilitators perform this duty in some form or other. It is a highly responsible role to play as it affects the ability for students to achieve, determine their development areas, successes and personal challenges that deter them from performing as well as they should be.

    There are many competent Occupation-Directed ETD Practitioners like myself out there that are competing in order to survive from a financial perspective. My personal opinion is that there are many consulting companies and training providers that take advantage of this and negotiate lower rates knowing that practitioners would rather have a contract that none at all. The Practitioner needs to cover transport costs and spend many hours after training preparing for the next day, assessing assignments, tests, etc. therefore, it is no longer worthwhile for him/her.

    I agree that GREED plays a big part within the process:
    – the Consultancy who wants to split huge profits between members and pay the Practitioner the bear minimum; and
    – the Practitioner that convinces the consultancy that he/she is “highly sought after”, exceptionally competent and worth the money that is to be spent on them. When it comes down to the results, however, the Consultancy discovers that the “reputable” Practitioner has oversold himself/herself and has placed the Consultancy’s reputation at risk.

    Being an ODETDP is not for sissies. You cannot give less than 100% of yourself. Would it not, therefore, make sense to put a payment structure in place so that Practioners, dependent on their qualifications, experience and levels of expertise can be fairly compensated for the tasks that they are so passionately committed to perform?

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  • #7444

    Hi Don

    This certainly is an interesting topic. What is a good facilitation fee? I say the more the merrier, however for workshops that I have done I have been paid an amount that varies from R1500.00 per day to R5000.00 per day. The companies who pay less at least pay for transport, accomodation and food. The higher they pay the less extras get paid. If you go onto the skills portal webpage and look at their so called competitive rates you will see that most of the advertisements advertise between R1000.00 and R2000 per day.

    So what is deemed or seen as a good wage, well I for one quite like the gentlemans blog that we should be paid per hour, If I am not mistaken he mentions a fee of R450p/h which is a good comprimise. Falls sort of in between the R5000 and the R2000 mark. Then I think that all accomodation etc should be paid seperate. This fee I believe should be a standard fee with assessment, development moderation etc all being extra.

    I recently did training for a company where I was paid R2000 p/day plus petrol. Later I was asked by the very same company to to do the exact same training but was only prepared to pay R1000 once off per day with no extra costs. This to me is a rip off especially when you know that the company is making 7 or 8 times that amount. Sometimes I think that the lack of training and the economic climate allows companies to take advantage of peoples skills and knowledge.

    More recently I was asked to run a project during the world cup whereby I would be subcontracting on behalf of another company. I was offered an amount R10000 to run all operations and be in charge of a facility that would be holding a capacity of 5000 people a day from 08:00 in the morning till approximately 12:00 at night this for between 7 and 12 days of work. I believe that this was not lucrative and actually found it a slap in the face. Particularly because the contracting company was making much more money and that this was a drop in the ocean. The responsibility of this function far out weighed the salary provided and then we not even talking about the amount of time spent on the job.

    As facilitators we should not be taken advantage of just beacuse of people are aware that there is a lack of business and that the economic climate suggest they can, and then I also believe that thumb suck figures just to say you helped a person is absolutely ridiculous.

    Maybe someone out there has the ability or knows the right people that can actually seta standard for pricing to elimate the ridiculous variations of fees payable.

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  • #7443

    Good recommendation, Clint!! I wonder if there are any Skills Universe Members out there willing to take this on – perhaps an on-line survey as a start could set some benchmarks for different types of Facilitation, Assessments and Moderation ?????????????????????????

    Clint Bailey said:

    Hi Don

    This certainly is an interesting topic. What is a good facilitation fee? I say the more the merrier, however for workshops that I have done I have been paid an amount that varies from R1500.00 per day to R5000.00 per day. The companies who pay less at least pay for transport, accomodation and food. The higher they pay the less extras get paid. If you go onto the skills portal webpage and look at their so called competitive rates you will see that most of the advertisements advertise between R1000.00 and R2000 per day.

    So what is deemed or seen as a good wage, well I for one quite like the gentlemans blog that we should be paid per hour, If I am not mistaken he mentions a fee of R450p/h which is a good comprimise. Falls sort of in between the R5000 and the R2000 mark. Then I think that all accomodation etc should be paid seperate. This fee I believe should be a standard fee with assessment, development moderation etc all being extra.

    I recently did training for a company where I was paid R2000 p/day plus petrol. Later I was asked by the very same company to to do the exact same training but was only prepared to pay R1000 once off per day with no extra costs. This to me is a rip off especially when you know that the company is making 7 or 8 times that amount. Sometimes I think that the lack of training and the economic climate allows companies to take advantage of peoples skills and knowledge.

    More recently I was asked to run a project during the world cup whereby I would be subcontracting on behalf of another company. I was offered an amount R10000 to run all operations and be in charge of a facility that would be holding a capacity of 5000 people a day from 08:00 in the morning till approximately 12:00 at night this for between 7 and 12 days of work. I believe that this was not lucrative and actually found it a slap in the face. Particularly because the contracting company was making much more money and that this was a drop in the ocean. The responsibility of this function far out weighed the salary provided and then we not even talking about the amount of time spent on the job.

    As facilitators we should not be taken advantage of just beacuse of people are aware that there is a lack of business and that the economic climate suggest they can, and then I also believe that thumb suck figures just to say you helped a person is absolutely ridiculous.

    Maybe someone out there has the ability or knows the right people that can actually seta standard for pricing to elimate the ridiculous variations of fees payable.

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  • #7442

    I agree with this. Because we are desperate for work people offer less for the day knowing we will probably take it. Service providers have a name and reputation because of trainers like our selves!! I am gratefull actually to TEP where I get some of my work for paying us between R3200 and R4500 for the day plus all other expenses. From this discussion good descent pay is hard to come by these days!!

    Glenda Chantelle Osborn said:

    I am a qualified ODETD Practioner (NQF 6 – completed cum laude in 2004), that has facilitated ODETD Diploma level subjects for a higher learning institution. In 2004, I was paid R3 500 per day to facilitate, R250 per portfolio of evidence (to assess), R10 000 to provide learner support to students for the study year and R150 to moderate 25% of modules assessed by other Practitioners facilitating NQF 4 subjects. I was also expected to carry out maintenance of the modules I was responsible for – there was an extra fee for this.

    Early this year, I was contracted by a training company that was prepared to pay R1 200 per day for training MS Word 2003 and MS Excel 2003. I was further paid R900 per day to facilitate a number of subjects (N3, N4 and N6) in one class at the premises of the training consultancy’s client. I was also required to set test papers, draft exercises/assignments as formal assessments, assess all, including past examination papers that were given to learners to assist them in preparing for semester examinations. When requesting an IRP 5 for the past tax year, I was told that they were not required to submit an IRP 5 so it was my problem. I do believe that I was grossly underpaid and, at the end of the day, being responsible for the tax component meant that I was earning even less. I did not sign a contract as was informed that the client had not signed an agreement with them – this did not make any sense to me at the time. If I was offered a fee, surely there had to be a contract in place at it would have been highly risky for the Consultancy to carry out “contracted” tasks without any structure or scope confirming roles and responsibilities of all parties!

    I have had more than 10 years of experience in the training environment and am passionate about playing a role in empowering individuals. Having the ability to play an extra role as a Business and Life Skills Coach, has been tremendously beneficial to me and my ‘students’ (across the board). All facilitators perform this duty in some form or other. It is a highly responsible role to play as it affects the ability for students to achieve, determine their development areas, successes and personal challenges that deter them from performing as well as they should be.

    There are many competent Occupation-Directed ETD Practitioners like myself out there that are competing in order to survive from a financial perspective. My personal opinion is that there are many consulting companies and training providers that take advantage of this and negotiate lower rates knowing that practitioners would rather have a contract that none at all. The Practitioner needs to cover transport costs and spend many hours after training preparing for the next day, assessing assignments, tests, etc. therefore, it is no longer worthwhile for him/her.

    I agree that GREED plays a big part within the process:
    – the Consultancy who wants to split huge profits between members and pay the Practitioner the bear minimum; and
    – the Practitioner that convinces the consultancy that he/she is “highly sought after”, exceptionally competent and worth the money that is to be spent on them. When it comes down to the results, however, the Consultancy discovers that the “reputable” Practitioner has oversold himself/herself and has placed the Consultancy’s reputation at risk.

    Being an ODETDP is not for sissies. You cannot give less than 100% of yourself. Would it not, therefore, make sense to put a payment structure in place so that Practioners, dependent on their qualifications, experience and levels of expertise can be fairly compensated for the tasks that they are so passionately committed to perform?

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  • #7441

    Lisa, You are absolutely correct !! Training Providers’ reputations are indeed built on their Facilitators, course material and service delivery.

    THSBS has been very fortunate to have built a Team of Facilitators and Associates who are committed to excellence in all that they do – much of which is beyond what is expected of them or for what they are paid. This special group of individuals have now worked together for several years and have a shared Value system and work ethic. More than that, they are committed to developing skills; capaciting others and empowering their Learners.

    Perhaps we Providers do not tell our “star” Facilitators, Course Material Developers and support staff how appreciated and valued they are. So, to all the “stars” out there a huge THANK YOU !!!

    Lisa Amanda Bradshaw said:

    I agree with this. Because we are desperate for work people offer less for the day knowing we will probably take it. Service providers have a name and reputation because of trainers like our selves!! I am gratefull actually to TEP where I get some of my work for paying us between R3200 and R4500 for the day plus all other expenses. From this discussion good descent pay is hard to come by these days!!

    Glenda Chantelle Osborn said:

    I am a qualified ODETD Practioner (NQF 6 – completed cum laude in 2004), that has facilitated ODETD Diploma level subjects for a higher learning institution. In 2004, I was paid R3 500 per day to facilitate, R250 per portfolio of evidence (to assess), R10 000 to provide learner support to students for the study year and R150 to moderate 25% of modules assessed by other Practitioners facilitating NQF 4 subjects. I was also expected to carry out maintenance of the modules I was responsible for – there was an extra fee for this.

    Early this year, I was contracted by a training company that was prepared to pay R1 200 per day for training MS Word 2003 and MS Excel 2003. I was further paid R900 per day to facilitate a number of subjects (N3, N4 and N6) in one class at the premises of the training consultancy’s client. I was also required to set test papers, draft exercises/assignments as formal assessments, assess all, including past examination papers that were given to learners to assist them in preparing for semester examinations. When requesting an IRP 5 for the past tax year, I was told that they were not required to submit an IRP 5 so it was my problem. I do believe that I was grossly underpaid and, at the end of the day, being responsible for the tax component meant that I was earning even less. I did not sign a contract as was informed that the client had not signed an agreement with them – this did not make any sense to me at the time. If I was offered a fee, surely there had to be a contract in place at it would have been highly risky for the Consultancy to carry out “contracted” tasks without any structure or scope confirming roles and responsibilities of all parties!

    I have had more than 10 years of experience in the training environment and am passionate about playing a role in empowering individuals. Having the ability to play an extra role as a Business and Life Skills Coach, has been tremendously beneficial to me and my ‘students’ (across the board). All facilitators perform this duty in some form or other. It is a highly responsible role to play as it affects the ability for students to achieve, determine their development areas, successes and personal challenges that deter them from performing as well as they should be.

    There are many competent Occupation-Directed ETD Practitioners like myself out there that are competing in order to survive from a financial perspective. My personal opinion is that there are many consulting companies and training providers that take advantage of this and negotiate lower rates knowing that practitioners would rather have a contract that none at all. The Practitioner needs to cover transport costs and spend many hours after training preparing for the next day, assessing assignments, tests, etc. therefore, it is no longer worthwhile for him/her.

    I agree that GREED plays a big part within the process:
    – the Consultancy who wants to split huge profits between members and pay the Practitioner the bear minimum; and
    – the Practitioner that convinces the consultancy that he/she is “highly sought after”, exceptionally competent and worth the money that is to be spent on them. When it comes down to the results, however, the Consultancy discovers that the “reputable” Practitioner has oversold himself/herself and has placed the Consultancy’s reputation at risk.

    Being an ODETDP is not for sissies. You cannot give less than 100% of yourself. Would it not, therefore, make sense to put a payment structure in place so that Practioners, dependent on their qualifications, experience and levels of expertise can be fairly compensated for the tasks that they are so passionately committed to perform?

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  • #7440

    Colin Dovey
    Participant

    The going rate for Soft Skills is R3000 per day, if you use their facilities and delegates are sourced by them. Otherwise R5000 per day is acceptable.

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  • #7439

    Skills Universe
    Keymaster

    Hi Don

    I’m of the opinion that the concept of fair pay is relative.

    Having been in the facilitation game for 10 years I’ve found that whilst it’s necessary to be flexible to the circumstances and/or the budgetry constraints of the training provider, it’s essential to know your own breakeven price. As facilitators our financial needs could vary considerably( depending on lifestyle, etc)so what might be a win for me might not be a win for Facilitator x. Hence having a fixed rate could jeopodize the income generation of those who can afford to work at a lower rate. I’m not so sure if that’s anti-competitive:)

    I consider it fortunate that we’ve been able to get rates varying bewteen R2500-R5000 per day since 2000. Even as high as R10000 per day for Top Management sessions. But when their was no “mieliepap” we were very keen to work at rates of a R1000 per day. Hence my opinion that YOU need to know your breakeven point!

    Jo & I decided to realise the full financial potential of our skill by not only selling our facilitation skills but by becoming a fully fledged provider as well. It seriously helped us appreciate why the top dollar goes to the Training Provider as opposed to the facilitator(with all due respect to my fellow facilitaors). I think it’ll help us become more streamlined and make us more competitive in the market.

    Awesome topic you raised!

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  • #7438

    Colin Dovey
    Participant

    The “Training Colleges” are charging their clients R9500 per delegate per day……simple arithmetic leads to this conclusion for just 6 delegates = 6 X R9500 = R57 000 – which means that the Facilitator gets 5,26% commission. The Training College cut, for just 6 delegates is, that case, way out. I have been offered 10% of net for training, at the clients facility, and thought it was poor, but when one does the sums, it actually is a better deal. Then of course, one has to factor in the experience and expertise – which a market factor any way.

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  • #7437

    Hi Don,

    I joined skills-universe today and the topic under discussion is one I have been grappling with for quite a while. I worked in the public sector for 34 years and the last 8 years have been facilitating extensively in the public sector. I am independent and a service provider I recently facilitated for, has a standard facilitation fee of R2000 per day irrespective of the number of learners, the level of the learners or the US level of the learning programme. This amount is also inclusive of the assessment of all the POE’s, any re-assessment and a full report must be submitted on any mistakes in the provider’s course material (you are therefore also ’employed as proofreader’ and ‘subject matter expert’ at no extra payment). Obviously programmes do not take place when the facilitator fee and overheads exceed the programme fees attendees pay, but facilitators are not compensated when the profits escalate many fold when say more than 16 learners attend a programme. On the other hand the facilitator’s work is increased many fold by all the extra POE’s which must be assessed. If it takes conservatively one hour per portfolio, the assessment of 16 portfolios amounts to two more days, thus making the fee of R2000 per day dwindling down to roughly R1430 per day or after tax to only +-R1100 per day. A Professional Facilitator being a subject matter expert should be paid not less than R3500 per day. Just as the service providers have overheads, so do independent facilitators. We also pay rent, also pay for utilities and petrol etc. etc. Where a service provider employ full time facilitators, it would also be fair to compensate them when they actually facilitate. An arrangement could be that their facilitation fee should be the same as what external facilitators receive per day they facilitate, minus what they earn per day as a salary as a full time employee. That will also ensure that service providers retain personnel and experience is built and not frequently lost. My proposal is that a facilitator’s fee should be based on a sliding scale taking the following into consideration: 1) the level of the participants (i.e. workers, junior and middle managers, senior managers and top managers), 2) the US level and 3) the number of attendees). Assessment fees and re-assessment fees should be extra and not part of the Facilitator’s fee for facilitating – Why would an Assessor find someone ‘Not Yet Competent’ if they are not compensated for the extra hour they have to spent re-assessing the candidate? There are too many ‘fly by nights’ in the market skewing the payment structure as they would accept any fee unscrupulous, profit hunting providers will offer them. At a certain point every extra learner’s attendance fee becomes almost 100% profit for the Provider and the Facilitator’s income is percentage wise decreasing due to the extra POE’s the Facilitator has to assess. Maybe it is time to establish an institution where Facilitators can register as Professionals, sign a Code of Conduct and depending on certain criteria be recognised as a Member, Senior Member or Professional Member.

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  • #7436

    Hi Gerrit,
    Well said. Your comments are relevant and valid. I would add just one more aspect to formulating the sliding scale you recommend – the “quality” of the Facilitator. We all know the old saying – you wanna rolls royce you gotta pay for it !!! You pay for a 1980 MINI , you get what you pay for.
    The article on the NSD 3 in todays Skills Portal issue leading upto the Conference would indicate that the “professionalism” of Facilitators and other ETD practitioners may eventually be realised thro’ a grading matrix. However, this won’t directly dictate Fee scales.
    As a strong supporter of free enterprise, it is my own view that ETD Practitioner Fees should be dictated by demand and supply. As with Estate Agents, there is an abundance of individuals marketing themselves as Facilitators – however, there is a shortage of properly skilled, competent and effective Facilitators with the right ethos, i.e. more concerned about the capacitating of Learners than their Fee. If you are a Rolls Royce Facilitator, you will attract higher Fees because your services will be in demand.
    I qualify my views by saying that there should be some “watchdog” to ensure that there is no abuse of the free market principles. The new Consumer Protection Act will have some relevance here ….. BUT, it is interesting to hear other points of view and I hope this discussion continues !!!!

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  • #7435

    Sandra De Leo
    Participant

    One would like to think that the SETA’s have analysed the costs and the value of training and assessment. Does anyone know of any defined structure on how the SETA’s calculate grants for Learnerships for example?

    Gerrit van Niekerk said:

    Hi Don,

    I joined skills-universe today and the topic under discussion is one I have been grappling with for quite a while. I worked in the public sector for 34 years and the last 8 years have been facilitating extensively in the public sector. I am independent and a service provider I recently facilitated for, has a standard facilitation fee of R2000 per day irrespective of the number of learners, the level of the learners or the US level of the learning programme. This amount is also inclusive of the assessment of all the POE’s, any re-assessment and a full report must be submitted on any mistakes in the provider’s course material (you are therefore also ’employed as proofreader’ and ‘subject matter expert’ at no extra payment). Obviously programmes do not take place when the facilitator fee and overheads exceed the programme fees attendees pay, but facilitators are not compensated when the profits escalate many fold when say more than 16 learners attend a programme. On the other hand the facilitator’s work is increased many fold by all the extra POE’s which must be assessed. If it takes conservatively one hour per portfolio, the assessment of 16 portfolios amounts to two more days, thus making the fee of R2000 per day dwindling down to roughly R1430 per day or after tax to only +-R1100 per day. A Professional Facilitator being a subject matter expert should be paid not less than R3500 per day. Just as the service providers have overheads, so do independent facilitators. We also pay rent, also pay for utilities and petrol etc. etc. Where a service provider employ full time facilitators, it would also be fair to compensate them when they actually facilitate. An arrangement could be that their facilitation fee should be the same as what external facilitators receive per day they facilitate, minus what they earn per day as a salary as a full time employee. That will also ensure that service providers retain personnel and experience is built and not frequently lost. My proposal is that a facilitator’s fee should be based on a sliding scale taking the following into consideration: 1) the level of the participants (i.e. workers, junior and middle managers, senior managers and top managers), 2) the US level and 3) the number of attendees). Assessment fees and re-assessment fees should be extra and not part of the Facilitator’s fee for facilitating – Why would an Assessor find someone ‘Not Yet Competent’ if they are not compensated for the extra hour they have to spent re-assessing the candidate? There are too many ‘fly by nights’ in the market skewing the payment structure as they would accept any fee unscrupulous, profit hunting providers will offer them. At a certain point every extra learner’s attendance fee becomes almost 100% profit for the Provider and the Facilitator’s income is percentage wise decreasing due to the extra POE’s the Facilitator has to assess. Maybe it is time to establish an institution where Facilitators can register as Professionals, sign a Code of Conduct and depending on certain criteria be recognised as a Member, Senior Member or Professional Member.

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  • #7434

    I need facilitators. Self empowerment. We will train them. 

    Self-Empowerment Programme 

    • Demonstrate an understanding of an entrepreneurial profile
    • Explain and apply the concept, principles and theories of motivation in a leadership context
    • Fee between R300 and R1000/hour depending on experience and qualifications.

    Carl@vulamehlo.co.za

    Training starts in KZN in communities.

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  • #7433

    Gail Gibson
    Participant

    I think most vendors pay appallingly low rates for the service they expect. Vendors wil try and bully you. I know things are tight, but  when people offer rates lower than for a semi skilled person then you start to question what their offerings are like.

    As an experienced assessor, I have seen rates go down from when I first started in 2005. This is upsetting. I also see many senior members of our profession are now being retrenched with a particular emphasis on one area. Are others experiencing an impact of BBBEE?

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  • #7432

    Thembisa Funani
    Participant

    Hi all, I have recently become independent and am now in the position of determining a daily rate for my services. What are now the accepted rates for facilitation, assessing and moderation per day?

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  • #61954

    maesela johanna
    Participant

    What can be accepted as a fair salary of a skills facilitator(learnership)

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