De-registration of Dept of Labour 1st Aid


Front Page Looking For… Training Service Providers De-registration of Dept of Labour 1st Aid

This topic contains 82 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  Riaan Fourie 1 year, 7 months ago.

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  • #25591

    Eduard Rabie
    Participant

    We have received a notice from merSETA that our Dept accreditation for 1st Aid (1-3) will be de-registered unless we have similar accreditations at HWSETA.

     

    The problem we have is the criteria for HWSETA. Apparently (According to a document supplied by HESETA) on of the directors must have a NQF2 (120 Credits) qualification.

    My wife is a registered assessor with merSETA in all these unit standards, a AEA Paramedic and a Fire Fighter…

     

    Does anybody have any advice for us?

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  • #25668

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Eduard, the stipulated requirement is now seen in the HWseta Accreditation Policy.  One or more of the applicant SDP Directors appearing on the CIPC or NPO registration document and seeking accreditation or programme approval with the HWSETA shall provide proof that they possess sector qualifications with minimum of 120 credits, and a minimum of three (3) years’ experience in the field.

    Notice in direction in terms of section 27(2) of the Occupational Health and Safety Act, read with regulation 3(4)(a) of the General Safety Regulations” given by the Minister of Labour dated the 30th September 2016.  “Regulation Gazette No 40313, 30 September 2016, Vol 615 No 10644, Page 24”

    “Those already registered with the Department of Labour, will after the promulgation of this notice, be granted 12 months to be accredited with HWSETA.  All service providers who fail to register within the given the period will be automatically be de-registered from the Department of Labour database and will no longer be recognized as legitimate service providers.”

    A huge concern Eduard, this goes for all providers.

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  • #25667

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    I was just about to refer Eduard to you.

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  • #25666

    Henk Cloete
    Participant
  • #25665

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Eduard, where does it stipulate at a NQF 2 level?  It is my understanding that any qualification (no NQF level indication) but must have 120 credits, a minimum of 3 years experience in that field, and the qualification must fall under the scope of HWSeta.  So in other words, if you have a Doctors Degree, MBA, CA and the like which doesnt fall under the HWSeta, you do not meet their requirements.  Do I understand this correct?  Any clarity will be awesome here!

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  • #25664

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Lynel, you are correct.

    The qualification that they refer to must be in the field of the HWSETA.

    My concern is that the qualification does not necessarily have to relate to First Aid.

    The “director” for the sake of the argument might have a qualification in counselling or ministry, and that would still be accepted by them…

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  • #25663

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Henk, to us, it doesn’t make sense nor does it give us a reason for this stipulation.  This issue is part of my submission to the QCTO for assistance.  Once I receive a response with guidance and a solution, I will post this.  I am concerned that I might start loosing track of all the discussions being posted on the same issue, I might need some help to ensure that everybody concerned will be informed.

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  • #25662

    Eduard Rabie
    Participant

    This means that we can present Basic Ambulance Assistant, Fire Fighting, Aviation Fire Fighting, but not 1st Aid!!!

    This is ridiculous! In effect this means that 90% or more 1st aid providers will have to close their doors. Where does Small Business development comes in?

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  • #25661

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Eduard, that is correct – and yes 90% of businesses will be forced to close down – that is the reality of this stipulation.  So what we have done thus far with this issue is as follows:

    I am submitting a list of concerns to the QCTO, whereby we request clarity and possible solutions to the issues.  I have asked in the open domain, that issues needs to be communicated to me, either on skills universe or if not comfortable in commenting, I have offered my email address.  I am not a provider, and have opted to submit the issues directly to the QCTO for all providers. 

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  • #25660

    Marie Smith
    Participant

    In terms of the General Safety Regulations, employers are obliged to appoint minimum numbers of first aid workers certified by specific organisations (Quote below). I know some of the emergency care/first aid unit standards formed part of qualifications under the auspices of certain SETAs. Not sure if the Chief Inspector  ever appointed other persons or organisations (such as SETAs) as per section 4(d).

    Legislation and regulations supersede any other stipulations such as SETA accreditation requirements.

    QUOTE:

    (4)  Where more than 10 employees are employed at a workplace, the employer of such employees shall take steps to ensure that for every group of up to 50 employees at that workplace, or in the case of a shop or an office as contemplated in the Basic Conditions of employment Act, 1983 (Act No. 3 of 1983), for every group of up to 100 employees, at least one person is readily available during normal working hours, who is in possession of a valid certificate of competency in first aid, issued by –

    (a)  the SA Red Cross Society;

    (b)  the St. John Ambulance;

    (c)  the SA First Aid League; or

    (d)  a person or organisation approved by the chief inspector for this purpose.

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  • #25659

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    So in a nutshell, the DoL have made the decision that, if you conduct training on First Aid – and you are registered by the DoL, you have until September to apply for accreditation at the HWSeta.  Now the HWSeta has added another stipulation whereby any individual listed on the CIPC of the company must have a qualification within the HWSeta sector – who ever thought of this stipulation, did not think of the impact nor job lossess nationwide

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  • #25658

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Oops, my apologies – until September 2017 (i forgot to add the year)

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  • #25657

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Did anybody notice that the following institutions are not affected by this?

    (a)  the SA Red Cross Society;

    (b)  the St. John Ambulance;

    (c)  the SA First Aid League;

    Only those appointed under (d) by the chief inspector of the DoL…

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  • #25656

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Extract from HWSeta Accreditation Policy, there are Clear Stipulations:   I put it to ……………

    7.6 One or more of the applicant SDP Directors appearing on the CIPC or NPO registration document and seeking accreditation or programme approval with the HWSETA shall provide proof that they possess sector qualifications with minimum of 120 credits, and a minimum of three (3) years’ experience in the field;

    7.7. For large firms or organizations (large means more than 250 employees), applicant SDPs shall ensure that one of the Senior Managers possesses the sector qualification/s with minimum 120 credits and a minimum of three (3) years’ experience;

    7.8. Directors and Senior Managers having the sector qualifications and experience shall be required to appear on the organization’s organogram and participate actively in the day to day operations of the company;

    7.9. No Director fronting shall be allowed;

    7.10. Directors of HWSETA accredited SDPs shall only be accredited for one company and shall apply for extension of scope if required;

    7.11 SDPs applying for initial or secondary accreditation for the first time with the HWSETA shall be allowed to apply for a maximum of three qualifications,

    7.12. Accredited and programme approved SDPs shall only be eligible to apply for extension of scope after successful endorsement of at least one group of learners;

    7.13. Accredited and programme approved SDP Directors shall be held accountable for the day to day operations of their companies. Such accountability shall not be transferred to consultants or employees;

    7.14. Applicant SDPs shall demonstrate readiness for accreditation or programme approval by presenting proof of having met the requirements to carry out the function of learning;

    7.15. SDPs shall be required to comply with the Facilitator-to-learner ratio of 1:30

    7.16. To allow for future progressions and completion of a full qualification, the HWSETA shall only accredit and approve applications for full qualifications and registered skills programmes comprising of a minimum of two and a maximum of ten unit standards from the same qualification;

    7.17. The registration of skills programmes shall respond to the demonstrated sectoral needs and the sector skills plan;

    7.18. Implementation of training shall be aligned to Clause 7.16;

    7.19. Under no circumstances shall any SDP be allowed to market or offer HWSETA qualifications and or skills programmes without being accredited or approved by the HWSETA;

    7.20. Only accredited or programme approved SDPs shall be allowed to offer training on the HWSETA registered qualifications and/or registered skills programmes;

    7.21. Non adherence to clause 7.20 shall lead to the SDPs being reported to the law enforcement agencies for prosecution;

    7.22. Accredited or programme approved SDPs who operate outside the parameters of this policy shall be de-accredited;

    7.23. Applicant SDPs shall be granted accreditation or programme approval when all the criteria have been met as per the contents of this policy;

    7.24. Learning materials submitted for evaluation and approval shall be returned to applicants and the approved learning materials shall bear the HWSETA stamp as confirmation of approval;

    7.25. SDPs shall adhere to and abide by the signed code of conduct forming part of the application process;

    7.26. Incomplete files shall not be accepted;

    7.27. Usage of the HWSETA learning materials shall be approved after signing the ‘Condition for usage of HWSETA training materials’ form and complying with all relevant approval requirements;

    7.28. SDPs shall be required to submit a letter of intent indicating readiness to commence with the accreditation process;

    7.29. The accreditation or programme approval letter shall be issued to successful applicants and signed by the Executive Manager ETQA;

    7.30. The programme approval certificate shall be issued and shall be signed by the ETQA Executive Manager and the HWSETA CEO if required;

    7.31. The accreditation certificate shall be issued to successful applicants and shall be signed by the ETQA Executive Manager and the HWSETA CEO;

    7.32. The HWSETA shall conduct random unannounced site visits to SDPs’ training sites and/or offices to verify compliance;

    7.33. SDPs intending to operate from more than one office shall be required to apply for the approval of the satellite offices from the HWSETA prior to conducting business in such offices;

    7.34. A site visit shall be conducted at the satellite office to confirm compliance as per the accreditation requirements;

    7.35. Satellite office/s shall be approved provided that the SDPs have proved that they have capacity and financial viability to sustain these sites;

    7.36. SDPs intending to deliver training for specific projects shall be required to apply for approval of training sites prior to the roll-out of such initiatives. The granted approval shall be valid for the duration of such projects only;

    7.37. The Executive Manager shall approve compliant satellite campuses and training sites;

    7.38. Liquidated accredited or programme approved SDPs shall be de-accredited;

    7.39. The applicant SDP company name or adverts shall not make inference to health related terms (for example “Nursing /pre-nursing) and or any such terms that are not within the mandate of the HWSETA,

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  • #25655

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Correction: Submission of concerns have been submitted to the QCTO (it was a large submission), so the mind is tired, fingers are tired, and I might actually apply for early retirement.  These issues are stressful man!

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  • #25654

    Leon Gouws
    Participant

    Hi Lynel. Thank you for taking this specific issue to the QCTO. There are many other issues also being used to push training providers to close their doors through changing policies and unconstitutional practices. Perhaps the time has come for all providers to approach the QCTO directly and try to setup a workshop or forum where ALL the challenges we encounter can be discussed and then resolved once and for all. It seems to me that every SETA is doing just what they want, when they want and without any consideration of the consequences to small business, learners and peoples livelihood.

    Perhaps it is time to start #SETAS MUST FALL as we can definitely not go on much longer under such strain.

    I fully support you for taking this up with the QCTO as we will do exactly the same immediately. As many providers as possible should do this. It is time for all of us to stand together or else face the music. 

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  • #25653

    Ilana Smit
    Participant

    I have heard that HWSETA is also very specific on the qualifications that one must have to register as an Assessor for the First Aid unit standard. Does anyone have more clarity on this?

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  • #25652

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    I spoke to one of the SETA Regional Managers and the following was made clear:

    Firstly, the current facilitators / instructors that are being used by DoL providers will not be accepted as Assessors unless they have completed unit standard based training on First Aid. This is directly in contrast with the current DoL requirements that states that the current facilitators / instructors must at least have a Level 3 certificate and an instructors certificate.

    Secondly, they will not accept “assessors” that did a first aid course just to get registered.  The person should also have at least three years of experience after training….

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  • #25651

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Henk, just as a matter of interest.  Is there any possibility that DoL/Seta will help and fund these instructors to get their Unit Standard Based Training?

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  • #25650

    Eduard Rabie
    Participant

    There comes the problem….

    Registered Ambulance Personnel’s qualifications are not unit standard based. Those training were regulated by the HPCSA and those qualifications are not SAQA aligned.

    Fire Fighter’s qualifications are SAESI aligned and not SAQA aligned

     

    Who would be the best instructor? The guy with 10yrs ambulance experience to teach 1st Aid or a Fire Fighter to teach Basic Fire Fighting vs a person that did the unit standard 3yrs ago?

     

    I think we must start flooding the government with complaints. Tell them about job losses and closing down of Small / Micro Enterprises…

    We can start with …

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  • #25649

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Eduard – Just to add more confusion –

    You should also be aware of the fact that the HWSETA made the following “alignments”, and also keep in mind that they do not do single unit standards – you will need to select and develop material for a Skills Programme that include the unit standard..

    First Aid Level 1 – Unit Standard 119567 HWSETA

    First Aid Level 2 – Unit Standard 120496 HWSETA

    Now – the ultimate blow…

    First Aid Level 3 – Unit Standard 376480 MQA

    You will need to apply to the MQA to be accredited against this unit standard, although this very same unit standard falls under Qualification 376480 that do fall under the HWSETA.  And for those that have worked with the MQA before, they have their own strict rules…

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  • #25648

    Ilana Smit
    Participant

    How will this affect the facilitators?

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  • #25647

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Not necessary to apply to MQA, this unit standard is found on the HWSETA 74269 National Certificate: Occupational Health, Safety and Environment, which means they can award accreditation to their providers.

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  • #25646

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Nigel

    I am aware of the fact that the unit standard falls under the HWSETA. I am only supplying directions / instructions that were given to me by my provincial HWSETA office…

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  • #25645

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    As a matter of interest Henk, I have never sat down and compared the course content of the unit standards listed against the DoL requirements for First Aid Levels 1 -3.  I know there has long been issues about course content, bearing in mind that the First Aid Levels were established long before the SAQA Unit Standard Levels, and actually have no corresponding value to the SAQA levels. I am not sure if there was ever an effort to produce unit standards which directly addressed the content of the First Aid Levels as stipulated by DoL?

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  • #25644

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    “Something is rotten in the state of HWSETA” ? (Sorry William and Hamlet) Clearly we do not go to some people for directions or we will end up in the hot place! And these are the people who are supposed to provide the development and support as originally envisaged by SAQA? I can see only 2 reasons for this type of direction/instruction. Either the person is not properly informed regarding the processes or they are deliberately trying to discourage you. Neither one of these scenarios’s is acceptable.

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  • #25643

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Notice: Concerns/Issues to be posted on discussion: QCTO to the Rescue!

    If a member has an issue or concern regarding a Seta, the following is important:

    1. The name of the Seta

    2. The concern/issue raised

    3. What actions have been taken to address the issue/concern with the Seta?

    4. What impact does it have on the business or to the learner/assessor/moderator/employer?

    Note: Concerns/Issues not posted on discussion: QCTO to the Rescue, will not be considered for submission to the QCTO.

    Issues and concerns not addressed directly to the Seta first, will not be considered or actioned by the QCTO.  We respect the reporting line and processes.  Keep evidence (records/emails) of how attempts were made to address the concerns/issues.  Post the concern/issue on the Discussion Heading: QCTO to the Rescue!

    Please ensure that the above 4 points are covered.  Once a number of concerns/issues have been placed/posted, we compile a detailed report and submit this to the QCTO for assistance.  The response from the QCTO gets placed/posted back on the Discussion Topic: QCTO to the Rescue!

    The reason for this request is, that it is virtually impossible to keep track of all the issues and concerns that are being raised in different discussions.  The only issues that will be compiled and submitted, will be the issues posted on the discussion title: QCTO to the Rescue!

    Thanking you in advance for your support and input, as well as your commitment to continue with quality education, training and development!

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  • #25642

    Hi Mr Rabie

    Apparently i was there last week and that is how the are conducting their accreditation,there’s no way around this and they made is very clear that is the requirement they not willing to negotiate on.

    Another thing they said was that one can hire a third party (make them snr managers) with those qualifications however the person must appear on the CK document as a shareholder of some sort.

    Their reasoning behind this is that they are getting rid of unecessary damages,lawsuits that they are somewhat facing now regarding the Firts Aid trainings.Some providers out there have taken advantage to innocent beings and only later they find out that their certificates are not legitimate,and not registered with HWSETA.

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  • #25641

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Kgomotso – for clarity here please.  Did the HWSeta say that you can hire a 3rd party that has the qualifications in ordre to comply?  Who gave you this guidance?  I just want to understand this correctly, please note: I am blond

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  • #25640

    Eduard Rabie
    Participant

    Hi Kgomotso,

    I just want to focus your attention on 7.9 of the HWSETA’s accreditation criteria…

    7.9. No Director fronting shall be allowed;”

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  • #25639

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Thank you Eduard!  That is correct!

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  • #25638

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Eduard, please copy and paste your issue to the: QCTO to the Rescue discussion

    I am not an expert in this field Eduard, but the daughter (and a very proud one) of a Firefighter – this is not an occupation for anybody, and needs priority and the attention to detail, standards, regulations etc.  I fully agree with you, a person that have the paperwork on a unit standard/qualification and 3 years experience – is not sufficient.  This occupation calls for experts in the field and not Academics.  I am not going to debate this anyone – it is a crucial occupation.  For the record, I believe that Firefighters are born Heroes with courage, noble qualities and the hearts of a lion.

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  • #25637

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Dear concerned Members, you are not forgotten.  Remember this discussion and the outburst of providers? 

    We have a new member Cornea Bruyns that came onto skills universe that will be meeting with DHET, QCTO and HWSeta on the 22 February 2017 (yes, next week).  I am looking for a list of names that Cornea will take with her, the more names she has, the better the outcome of course.

    May I add you to the list of concerned ?  I have Dannielle Gibb and Henk Cloete that placed their names on Skills Universe already, but I know that some members do not want to place their names in the public domain.

    Please let me know, the bigger the list, the better the outcome to providers nationwide

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  • #25636

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Leon, are you on board!!

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  • #25635

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    HI Ilana, may I include you in the list please

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  • #25634

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Eduard!  We might have the solution next week.  May I add you to the list of concerned providers with regards to the HWSeta and DoL requirements?

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  • #25633

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Kgomotso, are you on board for the list of concerned providers?

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  • #25632

    Leon Gouws
    Participant

    Hi Eduard,

     We are an accredited provider with Chieta, MerSeta, and CETA. We are training in the construction industry and do not have any links to the HWSETA. We are accredited with Dep of Labour and now they want to force us to have directors in the Company just for 1 type of training. EYSH!! Whats next?? We cannot ring fence our business to suit them. They want to force Companies to seriously look at fronting to survive.

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  • #25631

    Marie Smith
    Participant

    We had a meeting arranged (via Outlook meeting invite) with the ETQA Executive for last Friday at 10:00. Drove all the way from Pretoria to their Head Office. When we arrived, she indicated over the phone that she knew nothing about the meeting as it was not on her schedule for the day. It was interesting, though, that she knew what the meeting was about “Oh, finalisation of accreditation for …”. (Don’t know how she knew that if she did not have documentation in front of her.) When we confirmed, she indicated “I Think I have asked … to pass it on to …”. We there then lumped onto the ETQA accreditation officer, who was not prepared for the meeting and could not assist with any information.There was no meeting room available and we tried to have our meeting first in the waiting room and then at two different positions in the lobby, where loud-mouthed staff members were passing all the time, making it almost impossible to hear each other.

    Apparently, they don’t have any tracking system for progress with accreditation applications. We were informed that the file must be “in a box” of the officer at the Gauteng regional office and that there was no way to trace progress (we applied in 2014 and materials were approved at that stage).

    We were also informed about the policy of a Director that must have a full qualification and that the person must appear on company registration documentation. We were advised to get anybody, even a medical doctor or nurse from our social networks to serve as a director, as long as the person has a HWSETA qualification and is listed on the CIPC documentation. The officer said they would not budge on that and that the policy has even become more stringent. The reason given was that 94 people (and counting) have died. We fail to understand how a training provider’s qualifications can prevent tragedies such as that which has happened – the provider is not at all involved in the organisation where people die as a result of negligence of staff at an institution.

    Our application is for a soft skills programme for caregivers of people who have intellectual disabilities, for which there is a desperate need – nobody has been accredited for the programme against either the qualification or our elected unit standards, so there is nobody who has the qualification … A number of NGO’s are waiting for the training. The facilitator/assessor is a registered social worker and the manager of one of the NGOs where people will be trained.

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  • #25630

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    We have a new member Cornea Bruyns that came onto skills universe that will be meeting with DHET, QCTO and HWSeta on the 22 February 2017 (yes, next week).  I am looking for a list of names that Cornea will take with her, the more names she has, the better the outcome of course.

     May I add you to the list of concerned ? 

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  • #25629

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    What???????  Marie, I am shocked.  Not very professional at all.  I am so sorry to hear about this, and what you have experienced.  The meeting next week is conducted by one of the members here but with DHET, QCTO and the HWSeta – I don’t think that this will happen with the bigger authorities attending this meeting.  My goodness, I am disappointed in what you have experienced.

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  • #25628

    Henk Cloete
    Participant

    Yes…. but they advocate it…

    And how could providers be blamed for an issue being raised in the news NOW by the Health Ombudsman?? To quote:

    “The health ombudsman‚ Professor Malegapuru Makgoba‚ on Wednesday found that the Department of Health was negligent when it moved 1‚900 patients from Life healthcare.  He said the number of 94 fatalities is provisional as bodies remain unidentified in morgues and some families are still coming forward with names of dead people. His report is titled‚ “94 silent deaths and still counting“.”

    Thus – the STATE is to blame – not providers????

    But this is the easy way out for them… Then surely, close down the HWSETA as they also “contributed” to this sad state of affairs…

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  • #25627

    Cornea Bruyns
    Participant

    HI Edward

    I was told the same thing by the people in Polokwane – ( Yes we have to drive to Polokwane from Nelspruit (5Hours although JHB is a mere 3 hours away))

    When I confronted them with 7.9 they said this is the best way to do this as “You have to have a director on you CIPC.”… no more than that.”

    When I asked if they understood the implication on a company that has existed for several years the response was ” I don’t know. But his is what they want”

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  • #25626

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Shocked, this is not right.  There should be a valid reason for every requirement/stipulation.  When dealing with these stipulations, the response cannot be: “I don’t know” or “it is, what it is”. 

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  • #25625

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    We have put a lot of trust in the QCTO to sort this out, where QCTO in reply to previous queries on this indicated that the decision by HWSETA to include this “requirement” was unilateral.  It was pointed out that accreditation is a delegated function from the QCTO to the SETA’s, and that decisions such as these should have been discussed with them prior to any final decision and implementation.

    I have no problem with the regulation requiring HWSETA accreditation for providers offering First Aid training.  I have been dealing with lifting machine operator training for many years, under the Driven Machinery Regulations, which requires TETA accreditation in order to get DoL Approval.  In fact, if one looks at the wording for the LMO and First Aid training regulations regarding accreditation and Approval, they are virtually the same.

    However, the illogical HWSETA requirement, will not only restrict entry to this field, but the retro-active element will take away business from existing HWSETA accredited and already Approved providers and favour only a select few.  I can accept that this is a relatively serious business, where we are looking at training people to save lives, and sub-standard training will not achieve this. But surely the emphasis needs to be on the practitioners who present the training and assessment?  I cannot see the link between a company Director and the training intervention, unless that Director is presenting and assessing such training themselves.

    When SETA personnel are unable to give a clear explanation as to the reason for such a requirement, clearly it has no justified purpose other than to prevent entry to this field.  And the reason for that preventative measure obviously has other motives behind it which they are not willing to share, because it has no logic or justification.  This secretive and hidden agenda would appear to have roots in some form of mutual benefit, a not uncommon occurrence in our present environment, the parties to which would therefore not wish to have exposed.

    TETA have some 400 accredited training providers for LMO training, yet there is no such requirement for qualified company Directors.  The focus remains on qualified practitioners, as it should be. Does HWSETA think that there is more risk involved in First Aid training than in LMO training where operators are required to lift up to thousands of tons of goods/materials?

    This is just another example of the delusional grandeur under which some SETA’s work.  This “cast in stone” attitude of decisions made, which exclude proper participation in the first place, is nothing more than abuse of “authority”.

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  • #25624

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    wow, thank you Nigel.  I am currently compiling a list of concerned providers for Cornea, but to my absolute shock, a mere 6 providers have given their names to add to the list.  This is going pear-shaped and clearly 6 provider names will be laughed at.  Is there only 6 providers nationwide that has a problem with this?  Is all this outbursts and engaging with authorities a waste of time and a slap in the face?  Clearly, I am disappointed that when it comes to the real deal, standing up to finally get a solution, getting an approved and confirmed meeting with the powers that be, that the concerned providers are no-where to be found.

    Cornea, I am very sorry for this.  I do hope that those whom are concerned will quickly come to light and show their commitment in this process that you are taking on.  You are not alone, but the support that you will get now depends on those that have gone silent………………

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  • #25623

    Eduard Rabie
    Participant

    Yes you may..

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  • #25622

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Thank you Eduard, this is appreciated.  If you know of any other providers that have the same concern, please let me know.  The bigger the list the better the “voice” and outcome for all

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  • #25621

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Ilana, may I add you to the list?

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  • #25620

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Nigel, can I add your name to the list, I am now adding myself to the list, can you believe this

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  • #25619

    Ilana Smit
    Participant

    Hi you can add to the list

    Ilana Smit – Munashe Training & HR Services

    Jandre Botha – BMS Training

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  • #25618

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Thank you Ilana, this is appreciated.  I do hope that we will get more support on this issue.  Thank you for the details, this is appreciated.  Will add immediately

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  • #25617

    Elmarie Britz
    Participant

    Hi All

    This is also a huge concern for us. Will you please add Primeserv Corporate Solutions, Contact Elmarie Britz to the list.

    Thank you so much.

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  • #25616

    Ilana Smit
    Participant

    I will speak to some of my contacts and see if I can get more names for you

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  • #25615

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Ilana, thank you so much.  This is how it gets done!  Together we can make a success.  They say if you want to fast, go alone BUT if you want to go far, we go together!!

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  • #25614

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Elmarie, thank you for coming on board, this is fantastic.  Will add you to the list for sure, thank you so much for your interest and commitment!!!!

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  • #25613

    Elmarie Britz
    Participant

    Thank you so much Lynel this is much appreciated. 

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  • #25612

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    You are most welcome Elmarie.  We are all standing behind Cornea that will attend this important meeting next week.  A big High ^5 for you Cornea, you are making us all proud. 

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  • #25611

    Cornea Bruyns
    Participant

    Thanks guys.

    I would also like to bring under your attention that we ALSO have to register with DHET. So even if you are registered with any SETA you will now also have to register with DHET. See attached Gazette.

    I will also gather more info on this on Wednesday when I am up there, although this will be secondary to our appointment. MY ONLY AIM for Wednesday is that they relook at the HW SETA policy re the Directors (7.6 specifically)

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  • #25610

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Cornea, that is correct.  The application for registration to the DHET is compulsory – the deadline for this application is the 30th June 2017.  This is confimed with the QCTO and we have confirmation from DHET.  All the requirements for this compulsory registration is given on the website http://www.jc1-2016.com – this is not selling anything, but we ensure that the requirements are clearly stated.

    Your goal next week is the stipulation of the director (7.6) which must be addressed for sure.  Thank you once again for taking this and seeking solutions for this issue.  It will help thousands of providers!

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  • #25609

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    URGENT, URGENT: Dear concerned Members, you are not forgotten.  Remember this discussion and the outburst of providers? 

    We have a new member Cornea Bruyns that came onto skills universe that will be meeting with DHET, QCTO and HWSeta on the 22 February 2017 (yes, next week).  I am looking for a list of names that Cornea will take with her, the more names she has, the better the outcome of course.

    May I add you to the list of concerned ?  I have members Eduard Rabie, Dannielle Gibb and Henk Cloete  and a couple more that placed their names on Skills Universe already, but I know that some members do not want to place their names in the public domain.

    Please let me know, the bigger the list, the better the outcome to providers nationwide – this is urgent, please support this!!

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  • #25608

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    URGENT, URGENT: Dear concerned Members, you are not forgotten.  Remember this discussion and the outburst of providers? 

    We have a new member Cornea Bruyns that came onto skills universe that will be meeting with DHET, QCTO and HWSeta on the 22 February 2017 (yes, this week, in 2 days time!!).  I am looking for a list of names that Cornea will take with her, the more names she has, the better the outcome of course.

    May I add you to the list of concerned ?  I have members Eduard Rabie, Dannielle Gibb and Henk Cloete  and a couple more that placed their names on Skills Universe already, but I know that some members do not want to place their names in the public domain.

    Please let me know, the bigger the list, the better the outcome to providers nationwide – this is urgent, please support this!!

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  • #25607

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Cornea, please advise if you have had more support from providers, or is the list now in neutral, no movement.  Your meeting is 2 days away, and we need all the support we can get for you.

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  • #25606

    Cornea Bruyns
    Participant

    Hi there

    The list has grown, and I am sure the support will count a lot thanks.

    It appears – to no ones surprise – that the meeting will be postponed. I will let you know as soon as they have come back to me. I am waiting to hear from them. 

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  • #25605

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Hi Cornea, please do let us know.  If they postpone, it actually gives us more time to add to the list – the bigger the list of support, the better the outcome!!

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  • #25604

    sylvia hammond
    Keymaster

    Hi to all,

    if I could add to this discussion – the meeting may well be postponed – that I think would be very good.  

    In the discussion I am about to post about the QCTO feedback – it became very clear that there has not been a comprehensive understanding of the relevance on the ground of short courses such as First Aid etc.

    I will post shortly – just finishing off – please watch for it.

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  • #25603

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    We are watching in anticipation!!!!!  Thank you Sylvia!

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  • #25602

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Is there any update on this important meeting?  Is this postponed?  If so, please we need the date, so that we can get more support form providers that are effected by these stipulations/requirements.

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  • #25601

    Alastair Morrison
    Participant

    Hi All,

    I wish to express a viewpoint on the matter. I work in this industry extensively and have the same situation as the original poster. Namely the refusal of the HWSETA to accept my qualifications in Emergency care. I have however succeeded in the registration as Assessor and Moderator with the HWSETA through knowing the laws and seeking legal opinion/s where required. It has not been easy!

    I need to share some insight first into some challenges in this unique case that not everyone may know:

    Paramedical training in South Africa is controlled by the HPCSA a registered statutory body. As such the HPCSA decides on the requirements for registration of qualifications and training providers and so forth.. this is not done by the HWSETA in any way. They are both the SGB and the ETQA for the sector.

    The BAA, AEA, CCA qualifications collectively called the short-courses or vocational training, is not NQF aligned, and this is where significant challenges currently exist.

    The HPCSA convened meetings on the matter and concluded, (erroneously in my opinion) that alignment could not be done in any manner or form to place these qualification on the NQF. As such new qualifications were brought in namely a 2year national certificate and a 4 year degree both NQF accredited. This however does not solve the matter of approx. 50 000 vocationally trained paramedics who cannot currently progress. There even is a failure to properly allow RPL into the new structures, and worse the Health minister has now closed the registers for the training of these people in January this year. Effectively these 50 000 will remain registered but cannot progress and are presently in no way recognized on the NQF in any way. I doubt any training provider can afford to send a person to university for 2 or 4 years full time as no part-time courses are offered either.

    The bearing this has on training providers is:

    Many of these short course “paramedics” are owners of training companies and I would hope many are Assessors/Moderators and so forth. However the HWSETA policy is restrictive in that these qualified persons are not recognized for the purposes of registration. Purely due to the failure of the necessary bodies to fulfill their mandates to register the qualifications on the NQF. This places their businesses in massive trouble in additional to their personal development. Furthermore the DOL move to place First Aid training under the HWSETA and “force” the process is indeed very worrying.

    A very interesting development came about in a court judgement a few years ago, namely:

    The HPCSA is NOT empowered to open or close registers, only the minister may do this. This was the proposal of the HPCSA to end the training of these paramedics a few years ago.

    The Honourable Justice presiding therefore reserved judgement on the matter citing that the motion to interdict the HPCSA until these courses were incorporated into the NQF, and stopping training providers from continuing training brought by a collective of training providers, had to be set aside UNTIL the minister signed this into law and followed due process. Following the proper process and subsequent closure, only then can the minister et al be interdicted. The court case is presently sub judice.

    In a nutshell: Even a statutory body may not act without the ministers approval on a matter relating to what may and may not qualify as a qualification for the purposes of registration. Only the minister decides this on the advice of these bodies.

    I cannot see how this is different? I therefore feel that the matter should be reviewed to the extent that a person must possess the requirement stated by the policy OR a qualification approved by a registered statutory/professional body in which the person has SME related to the qualification or programme applied for.

    As many know, SAQA recognizes and has to register by law the statutory bodies. They have done so!

    As the HPCSA is a statutory body, any person registered in terms of the act is deemed to be qualified and has professional status conferred on them once they are registered.

    Therefore:

    The move by the HWSETA to reject to accredit applicant providers that posses these qualifications registered by a statutory body and may I add a registered one by SAQA is unconstitutional, as it infringes on our rights to:

    Trade and occupation

    Education 

    Just Administrative Action

    Therefore a matter such as this should be referred to a court for decision, alternatively the minister of higher education, under whose mandate these structures operate should provide direction and remove this unconstitutional clause. I speculate that the HWSETA did this on their own mandate however and possibly did not seek public comment. I stand corrected. Irrespective, it remains unconstitutional.

    I would recommend you file papers in a court on these grounds.

    Opinions are most welcome!

    Regards,

    Alastair

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  • #25600

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Wow Alastair, thank you for this.  Cornea must take notes here!  Alastair, what about the Department of Labour that made stipulations and this caused a ripple effect to the HWSeta and the additional requirement was implemented without proper consultation to the QCTO.  The QCTO is a council, and they are in the process of arranging a meeting with Dol, HWSeta and DHET to solve this issue.  We are awaiting a date.

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  • #25599

    Leon Gouws
    Participant

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  • #25598

    Leon Gouws
    Participant

    Good morning all interested parties to this important subject. We had an audit from Department of Labour on Friday and questioned them on the issue of being accredited with HWSeta in regards to the first aid training. There reply was as follows:
    1. They have discussed the requirements as stipulated by HWSeta with them and HWSeta has agreed that IF A PROVIDER IS ACCREDITED WITH ANOTHER SETA AND IN THEIR QUALIFICATION OR ACCREDITATION IS FIRST AID INCLUDED THEN THE PROVIDER CAN APPLY FOR PROGRAM APPROVAL AND HWSETA WILL APPROVE THEM ON GROUNDS OF ACCREDITATION WITH ANOTHER SETA.
    I then told them that this is not what we heard or experienced. She then told me that they (DOL) will assist us should HWSeta not want to give us program approval. So I am not sure what to think of this as it seems to me the proplem has been addressed but not communicated to any provider. Your comments will be appreciated.

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  • #25597

    Nigel Shipston
    Participant

    Leon, This would indeed be good news if it turns out to be true, but it is a sad indication of the lack of consistency and continuity between all the authorities who are clamouring to take a bite at private training providers.

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  • #25596

    Cornea Bruyns
    Participant

    definitely taking notes

    Please also see my discussion I posted on DHET/HW SETA/QCTO” on Skills-Universe.

    I have also made contact with deputy director of QCTO and am in conversation with him and his team.

    Keep you posted.

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  • #25595

    Cornea Bruyns
    Participant

    There was a meeting with DOL this morning and they requested ALLLLLLLL concerns in writing.

    Please use my email> cornea@nicore.co.za and forward me as much as anyone can. We have a cut off date of end of March to delivery of complaints to DOL and trust that you all will ADD to our list that we can provide a comprehensive report to the Dept.

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  • #25594

    Leon Gouws
    Participant

    Yes indeed. We are immediately going to follow-up on this and see where this will go. Will keep everyone updated.

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  • #25593

    Leon Gouws
    Participant

    Hi Cornea,

                 Thanks for that. We had an audit from DOL on Friday where the officials told us that we can only apply for program approval and if we wre accredited with another SETA they (WHSeta) will have no objection to give us program approval.

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  • #25592

    Cornea Bruyns
    Participant

    Hi Leon

    Thanks, I am waiting the reply from HW Seta. I submitted my application in Nov. Will do so again if this is their policy now.

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  • #42964

    Cornea Bruyns
    Participant

    Hi

    I have written confirmation from HW Seta in Polokwane that they will not accept my application. It is a MOU from TETA.

    I don’t think the one hand knows what the other is doing….

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  • #42963

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    7 March 2017

    Dear Friends and Colleagues 

    RE: DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR TO HWSETA CHANGE OVER SEPTEMBER 2017

    Barry Milner (Blue Star Academy of First Aid) and I have volunteered to assist our fellow First Aid Training Institutions 

    with complaints and concerns regarding the new process of being approved by Department of Labour– Government Gazette (see attached)

    regarding ​t​he change of process from Department of Labour(hereafter referred to as DoL) to Health and the Health and Welfare SETA

    (hereafter referred to as HWSETA) as from September 2017. We ourselves have been attempting this process since 2013 to no avail as yet. 

    We have pursued the task yet again​, with urgency,​ since the Gazette has given us until September 2017 to comply.

    We have had little or no correspondence ​from HWSETA, except for “​you are non-compliant​”​without any real answers as to why,

    ​​or recommendations to us ​in order to correct the issues at hand.

    As we dug deeper we have since found some challenges including but not limited to the following: 

    much of it hearsay and not much in writing:

    ·         At least one Director of your company has to have a sector qualification to register with HWSETA

    ·           All first aid instructors have to be HWSETA Assessors with credits totaling 120 with a minimum of two years’ experience in the

               field in this new tier system (Unit Standard 74269)

    ·         They do not recognize BAA, AEA and CCA as a qualification worth credits as they are short courses

    ·         You have to have a comprehensive Quality Management System in place.

     

    We had a meeting with DOL (see attached) and have been given this opportunity to get as many Institutions involved to ask for an extension in order for to us to comply. The above is quite a lengthy process as some may have experienced. DoL did not realize about the new tier Credit system and that at least half of us will be out of business if we are ​deemed ​non-compliant.

    N.B We only have one opportunity to address this challenge – If you have any queries with regards to the above you are welcome to contact us.

    I have attached a document which you can kindly fill in and return by no later than Monday 20 March 2017 to Barry Milner at (bluestar@netactive.co.za),

    ​N​o late entries will be accepted by DOL.

    For those larger concerns and companies who have got HWSETA registration please consider assisting ​the​ smaller companies.

    Thanking you in advance and looking forward to your response. 

    For those who are able to​,​

    please log onto http://www.skills-universe.com/group/concerned-providers-interest-group and make your voice heard. 

    Please forward this to others that you know​, because​we do not have a comprehensive database to work from.

     

     

    Kind Regards, Sharon Alderson and Barry Milner

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  • #42962

    Lynel Farrell
    Participant

    Urgent Notice to Providers:

    Here are attached documents that you need to go through please – do not delay this process.  Stand up, complete this document and ensure you have a record of your submission – let’s do this please.

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  • #58052

    Gail Theron
    Participant

    Hi, Lynel
    Firstly, thanks for your enthusiasm and relentless efforts to assist. I am late on the bus, but in the same position. A visit to our local friendly HWSETA later regarding the qualification of Director met with an apathetic ‘you will have to get creative’… we are still reeling. Are there any new developments, perhaps? I am also not aware of other registrations due in June? Could anyone maybe assist us with some information? Thank you to all and may we all get the answers in our favour…(and a unicorn along with that tall order)

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  • #64479

    Riaan Fourie
    Participant

    I just happened to see this website through some of my research. I am very glad that I did. I am shocked, to say the least at what is currently happening.
    Background: I am an advanced life support paramedic, a CCA qualified by the “old” short course route. I am also a firefighter with qualifications obtained through HPCSA and SAESI. I have been in the emergency services industry for the past 17 years now and I believe that I know a little bit of what is going on in the field. I have recently decided that I want to start teaching others. I did my CPR instructors course and I am currently instructing CPR and other courses through the Resus Council of south Africa.

    Now I have also decided that I need to open my own training centre to present the first aid courses. I am doing my assessors course in the new year and want to register with HWSETA as such and register as a service provider. Now i read all of this with shock that in essence I will not be allowed to do this.

    As I have said, 17 years treating the sick and injured and for the last 10 of those as an advanced paramedic should give me some credibility to be able to teach a first aider.

    Has there been any conclusions to the meetings that was to be held as previous post mentioned?
    I would like to also show my support for this cause. I do not want to fail before I have even started.

    I could go and do a university course for 2 years and obtain the relevant NQF credits but then I would not get a salary for two years.

    Point is that I believe that I am more than qualified to teach first aid and basic firefighting.
    hope to hear from you soon.

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