180 000 turned away at Universities - how will companies implement Pivotal training?
As it is, we are batteling to source Scarce Skills.
I believe Pivotal Grants will come into effect this year. If we dont provide workplace training to underdgarduates or interns we are going SETA's will penalise us 10% of SDL Pivotal retrieval.
Industries differ, I know... but still, how on earth are we going to source candidates, if applicants are turned away at Universities ?
Interns will be easier to source as they are already qualified, but will be scarce and lapped up by the bigger companies who can afford to host them at livable salaries.
To host one Intern at a reasonable salary will cost at least R4000 per month = R48 000 per annum.
The question is how will small and even medium sized companies afford to host interns ?
Many medium size companies' 50% retrieval as it stands is is less that R48 000 per annum
I suspect the 40% mandatory retrieval will be too small for the effort and small companies will just throw in the towl due to the cumbersome and complicated WSP ATR process, OFO confusion and not bother to retrieve SDL at all.
Training and upskilling our people at unskilled / semi skilled levels will not count as we cant can't enroll labourers on degrees or qualifications...short courses apply to employees at this level, which in not Pivotal.
I believe even CPD is not Pivotal - i.e. keeping the Interns and Degreed employees "up to speed" and relevant wont count as Pivotal and once again 10% Training Budget will be forteited
Any comments to this discussion will be valuable.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Abisael Michael Mohahabe on -
i have just read the Gazzete on Grant Regulations and im more dissapointed than ever, the Minister is intending to take away what is due to the workers - forgeting that it is due to the organised formations of workers that we had a levy for training.
if SETA's can only use DG money on learners on Pivotal training then what about the workers, what about the neccessary training for the workers to upskill them, is the principle of life long learning at the workplace coming to an end because the reality is that this DG money was able to help a lot of small and meduim sized companies to upskill their workers.
why are the employers supposed to be charged by the seta's for services rendered when it is through the employer that the seta financially exists - just why??? this is pure day light robbery i gues the Minister is becoming "levypreneur"
the school system is producing learners who cant read or right properly, the FET colleges have dismal results, the NCV does not have lateral progression, on completion of the NCV (NCV LEVEL04) no one knows how much level of workplace learning the individual is supposed to do, the technical training recieved at FET college (mostly bad) is not aligned to trade test requirements yet such individual is assumed that he/she must do a trade test.
i propose that all Training Managers, Specialists and Consultants must put comments forward against this Gazette - if you are involved in structures of organised business, kindly lets stand together against this.
regards
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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Stylianou on -
Hi Abisael, do you a copy of the Gazetted Grant Regulations that you can upload for us ?
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Permalink Reply by Abisael Michael Mohahabe on
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Stephanie Stylianou said:Hi Abisael, do you a copy of the Gazetted Grant Regulations that you can upload for us ?
Hi Stephanie, kindly find attached.
- Attachments:
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Permalink Reply by Angelo Sullivan Antonio Peters on -
I would like to respond by saying that government did it again, a big ah hah!!! Don't know if you could still recall my posting regarding skills programmes and short courses earlier. I would like to irritate this by instilling that why are Dr. Blade Nzimande not looking after the quality of our under and post graduates opportunities after completing their tertiary qualifications. Focus should be on how internships are made available, how are they monitored, do we have SME's assisting our graduates, are these SME's trained as competent Coaches and Mentors,....etc.
I am of opinion that there is not enough systems in place to track the effectiveness of Internships. Once we have addressed these challenges than and than only will I be comfortable with it.
Most companies utilize this as an opportunity to fund themselves and not to actually assist our graduates in gaining the necessary practical exposure they need.
PIVITOL grants is there to necessitate companies in taking on Interns for the growth of our economy and should therefore be enforce through the penalties, as stipulated in the government gizatte. If we are not only to sustain our economy, but even grow to new heights, we need these penalties.
On the point of OFO codes and the classification thereof, SETA's should do a proper assessment of the companies operating in their sector and based on their findings classify it properly.
Abisael Michael Mohahabe said:i have just read the Gazzete on Grant Regulations and im more dissapointed than ever, the Minister is intending to take away what is due to the workers - forgeting that it is due to the organised formations of workers that we had a levy for training.
if SETA's can only use DG money on learners on Pivotal training then what about the workers, what about the neccessary training for the workers to upskill them, is the principle of life long learning at the workplace coming to an end because the reality is that this DG money was able to help a lot of small and meduim sized companies to upskill their workers.
why are the employers supposed to be charged by the seta's for services rendered when it is through the employer that the seta financially exists - just why??? this is pure day light robbery i gues the Minister is becoming "levypreneur"
the school system is producing learners who cant read or right properly, the FET colleges have dismal results, the NCV does not have lateral progression, on completion of the NCV (NCV LEVEL04) no one knows how much level of workplace learning the individual is supposed to do, the technical training recieved at FET college (mostly bad) is not aligned to trade test requirements yet such individual is assumed that he/she must do a trade test.
i propose that all Training Managers, Specialists and Consultants must put comments forward against this Gazette - if you are involved in structures of organised business, kindly lets stand together against this.
regards
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Permalink Reply by Abisael Michael Mohahabe on
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Hi Angeloi fully hear your view and fully support the initiative of assissting graduates for pratical experience or exposure, im however totaly opposed to elevating the needs of the graduates over others in particular especially the workers -
smaller and medium companies will no longer train their employees if the PIVOTAL Grants approach is implemented as per the Gazzette. The mandatory grants may be reduced, its ok but not at the expense of the workers, these PIVOTAL grants does not even include Adult Education and Training!!!
then in 2012, for claiming Mandatory Grants, companies must do and submit the ATR,PTR and WSP!!!
Angelo Sullivan Antonio Peters said:I would like to respond by saying that government did it again, a big ah hah!!! Don't know if you could still recall my posting regarding skills programmes and short courses earlier. I would like to irritate this by instilling that why are Dr. Blade Nzimande not looking after the quality of our under and post graduates opportunities after completing their tertiary qualifications. Focus should be on how internships are made available, how are they monitored, do we have SME's assisting our graduates, are these SME's trained as competent Coaches and Mentors,....etc.
I am of opinion that there is not enough systems in place to track the effectiveness of Internships. Once we have addressed these challenges than and than only will I be comfortable with it.
Most companies utilize this as an opportunity to fund themselves and not to actually assist our graduates in gaining the necessary practical exposure they need.
PIVITOL grants is there to necessitate companies in taking on Interns for the growth of our economy and should therefore be enforce through the penalties, as stipulated in the government gizatte. If we are not only to sustain our economy, but even grow to new heights, we need these penalties.
On the point of OFO codes and the classification thereof, SETA's should do a proper assessment of the companies operating in their sector and based on their findings classify it properly.
Abisael Michael Mohahabe said:i have just read the Gazzete on Grant Regulations and im more dissapointed than ever, the Minister is intending to take away what is due to the workers - forgeting that it is due to the organised formations of workers that we had a levy for training.
if SETA's can only use DG money on learners on Pivotal training then what about the workers, what about the neccessary training for the workers to upskill them, is the principle of life long learning at the workplace coming to an end because the reality is that this DG money was able to help a lot of small and meduim sized companies to upskill their workers.
why are the employers supposed to be charged by the seta's for services rendered when it is through the employer that the seta financially exists - just why??? this is pure day light robbery i gues the Minister is becoming "levypreneur"
the school system is producing learners who cant read or right properly, the FET colleges have dismal results, the NCV does not have lateral progression, on completion of the NCV (NCV LEVEL04) no one knows how much level of workplace learning the individual is supposed to do, the technical training recieved at FET college (mostly bad) is not aligned to trade test requirements yet such individual is assumed that he/she must do a trade test.
i propose that all Training Managers, Specialists and Consultants must put comments forward against this Gazette - if you are involved in structures of organised business, kindly lets stand together against this.
regards
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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Stylianou on
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Abisael Michael Mohahabe said:
Stephanie Stylianou said:Hi Abisael, do you a copy of the Gazetted Grant Regulations that you can upload for us ?
Hi Stephanie, kindly find attached.
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Permalink Reply by Joe van Wyk on -
The WSP and ATR processes are already cumbersome as it is...it's general knowledge that so many SMMEs have simply thrown in the towel and don't submit these documents for mandatory grant refunding. And now there is the spectre of the Pivotal Grant that is looming in terms of the discretionary grant (at least, that's my understanding of this whole red-taped, top-heavy affair). And why must everything to do with government interventions be subject to penalties?
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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Stylianou on
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Thanks for sending the doc Abisael! I was hectic with Emp Equity Submissions to meet deadline today!
First and foremost I need to emphasise that up-skilling our workforce is very, very important. There is a need for SETA's - for sure !
I am not against the concept Skills Development . I am ALL FOR IT
My points for discussion / comments are the following and I will send more after I have perused the doc in depth
1. CPD (Continued Prof Dev) is not being recognised as PIVOTAL. Surely keeping our Grads/Interns up to speed whilst & after they qualify with new technology, products or developments are Critical Skills to the Scare Skills we addressing or might have in place in the workplace and need to retain.
CDP points / hours are awarded and some industries have a certain amount of points / hours required for their professionals to remain current. (Getting CPD Accredited by professional bodies is another issue that we can discuss at a later stage as many bodies leave much to be desired for)
Sending Nurses, Doctors, Accountants, or Lawyers on Conferences / Seminars for new product / development training and HR professionals on Labour Law, Budget, / Tax updates is key to keep them current in their respective sectors. It is also an employee retention method.
Companies will want to ensure that their Undergraduates / Interns, Leanerships and employees on Apprenticeships in their employ or those that they are hosting are kept up to speed / current. For example I have a teacher Intern and there is a workshop on ADHD – I would want to send him on that workshop too!
CPD is not cheap training. A Labour Law Seminar last year cost R10 000 per person. So in my mind, CPD should perhaps be seen as “ POST PIVOTAL” Critical Skills or we will end up with a pool of professionals that are going to become inept.
Not only the professional sector but for example a qualified Payroll Administrator with a certificate in need CPD in payroll updates ( UIF, PAYE etc)
Sometimes product launches are hosted abroad and travelling costs alone are very costly
Another learning type that is becoming a global way of training is E-learning. Employees can now access internet training at the workplace or at home. Many Universities and FET’s have online courses…. CPD is also offered via E-learning.
2. It will seem that Discretionary Grants and Pivotal Grants are overlapping in “programme types” as both these grants address Scarce Skills.
I know that discretionary grants apply to Learnerships, Apprenticeship, Skills Programmes. ABET and Workplace Experiential Training. (in accordance with each SETA’s Sector Skills Plan). The latter in the form of In-Service training order to qualify as part of degree or diploma’s pre-requisite in order to qualify, or Internships for first year graduates to receive practical training
It will seem that PIVOTAL also has this component / programme type except that PIVOTAL does not provide Skills Programme or ABET grants.
Discretionary grants are granted at the sole discretion of SETA’s where the PIVOTAL grant must be proven by the employer…. This is the only other difference I can see unless I am totally confused and someone can shed light on this for me?
Many, many small companies will not be able to afford PIVOTAL training. A four year degree can cost R10 000 per annum plus the salary of R4000 per month = R58 000 per annum - this without books or transport to University for ONE learner. I know for a fact that an employee that studies and does practical work cannot complete 10 modules a year and this through distance learning through UNISA. 4 year degree can take up to 8 years to obtain.
A company with a payroll of R500 000 SDL payable to SARS is R5000 per annum and they are only going to retrieve mandatory 40% of R2000 per annum. So there goes all small company participation in SETA initiatives – they will get lost in the system unless they are guaranteed a discretionary grant to host Interns or Undergrads? Discretionary grants are not easily obtained and the compliancy process is mammoth. Getting paid once granted by certain (not all) SETA’s is another concern.
Even a payroll of R5 000 000 (SDL = R50 000 per annum to SARS) will only retrieve a 40% mandatory grant of R50 000 – and this is not a small company.
My other concern is that there are a lot of companies that don’t spend their SDL retrievals on training. Some are committed and some profit form it. To date WSP’s are approved based on the ATR in numbers trained and not budget spent. I will suggest that ATR’s get approved based on companies spending their full SDL retrieval on Training. The SDL retrievals should essentially become TRAINING BUDGETS.
Perhaps DHET should also look at ensuring the payment process of Discretionary Grants to employers within certain time frames for example 30 days after lodging results or progress reports ?
How long will it take for SETA’s to pay out PIVOTAL grants and what mechanism has been put in place to audit PIVOTAL Grants to ensure that the employer is truthful?
Another learning type that is becoming a global way of training is E-learning. Employees can now access internet training at the workplace or at home. Many Universities and FET’s have online courses…. CPD is also offered via E-learning.
3. In certain industries the majority of the workforce is unskilled Labourers who will never be enrolled on PIVOTAL training. The construction and mining and food processing industries (factories) come to mind. It is very important to up skill them and build morale through ABET or send them on HIV/AIDS awareness training as well as practical short courses such as CPR and First Aide Training. For example a general worker can go on a Landscaping course, a school gardener on a Pool Chlorinator course, a driver on Advanced Driving Skills course etc. We cannot ignore them. ABET funding is not always viable if the class is less than 10, and small companies won’t be able to afford ABET form SDL retrieved or have 10 unskilled employees to send on ABET training. (Discretionary grants are not accessible to many small companies to implement ABET)
Workplace on the job training for factory workers is common but not recognised. Factory workers receive this form of training all the time from Supervisor’s or Team Leaders who transfer their knowledge / skills on a daily basis. This is affordable training. The only cost to the company is work out the hours spent on training.
To conclude, in my mind all training is important (pivotal) if once looks at the true definition of pivotal. Companies that are serious about Skills Development will not embark on training that is not relevant to their needs and to increase productivity in the workplace by creating a more skilled workforce across all managerial levels that will ultimately will produce bigger profits! But alas, budget restraints will make PIVOTAL training to expensive to implement for many small to medium companies and only the large companies with budget and / or additional budget will benefit.
Perhaps DHET should look ensuring that the SDL retrieved is indeed spent on training (whatever the programme type) and not get pocketed by some employers as profit?
I have not perused the entire doc yet….
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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Stylianou on
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Joe van Wyk said:The WSP and ATR processes are already cumbersome as it is...it's general knowledge that so many SMMEs have simply thrown in the towel and don't submit these documents for mandatory grant refunding. And now there is the spectre of the Pivotal Grant that is looming in terms of the discretionary grant (at least, that's my understanding of this whole red-taped, top-heavy affair). And why must everything to do with government interventions be subject to penalties?
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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Stylianou on
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Abisael Michael Mohahabe said:
Stephanie Stylianou said:Hi Abisael, do you a copy of the Gazetted Grant Regulations that you can upload for us ?
Hi Stephanie, kindly find attached.
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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Stylianou on
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I fully AGREE with you Abisael .... We cannot IGNORE our Labourers. They form an essential part of the Workforce.
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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Stylianou on
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Stephanie Stylianou said:
Joe van Wyk said:The WSP and ATR processes are already cumbersome as it is...it's general knowledge that so many SMMEs have simply thrown in the towel and don't submit these documents for mandatory grant refunding. And now there is the spectre of the Pivotal Grant that is looming in terms of the discretionary grant (at least, that's my understanding of this whole red-taped, top-heavy affair). And why must everything to do with government interventions be subject to penalties?
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